Re: Questions concerning the DPL board
On Wed, Mar 07, 2007 at 04:16:13PM +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Mar 2007, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > > 1/ Why do you think that alone you'll be able to take consensual decisions if
> > > you fear that you're not able to convince a small set of open-minded
> > > Debian developers?
> >
> > It's not about being able to take consensual decisions; it's about the
> > fact that for a Debian Developer who's not a member of the board, having
> > a board to talk to when there's a problem takes a lot more effort than
> > having just one person (the DPL) to talk to.
>
> As I explained, you can bring up an issue to the board simply by
> convincing one member of the board to do it, you don't need to discuss
> with everybody if you don't want to.
There is a difference between bringing up an issue and having it
approved.
> On the contrary, it opens more possibilities of interactions with the
> DPL, since you don't have to rely on a single person but you can
> choose one out of a set (consider the case that the DPL elected is
> someone that you don't really like, then having choice is
> interesting).
>
> > Then there's also a bunch of procedures that need to be created in order
> > to simply be *able* to take decisions as a group.
>
> Sure. But will you as DPL take decisions without consulting anyone?
No, and that was exactly my point.
> I don't think so. The board is only formalizing a bit more who are
> your advisers and make sure that the advisers are known to the rest of
> the project. Those procedures do not get added, they replace an
> internal process of self-conviction that you have to follow anyway if
> you're DPL as an individual.
It's not unlikely for the DPL to decide whom to ask for feedback
depending on the issue at hand. With a board, you likely don't do that.
> > Sure, it's a lot easier to reach consensus when there's 10 people to
> > talk to rather than 1000 people; but I feel that's looking at it from
> > the wrong side. A proposed board *still* needs to listen to the group of
> > 1000 people to be able to form an opinion that is in the best interest
> > of the entire project, so you're not really solving anything.
>
> There's no way you can listen alone to 1000 people.
Sure; but then, having 10 people rather than just 1 isn't going to solve
that, either.
> Those 1000 persons are spread over 160 mailing list and you probably
> subscribe to one or two dozens of the mailing lists. With a board, you
> certainly have a broader coverage of the project.
I did not contest that.
[...]
> > > 2/ Do you agree that the proposed board is a good compromise for a
> > > group representing Debian's diversity (in terms of opinions at
> > > least) while still consisting mainly of open-minded people with
> > > good communication skills?
> >
> > No. I think doing so would only really be possible if Developers were to
> > align themselves in groups of likeminded people, much like political
> > parties.
>
> Huh, I was asking for comments on the actual composition of the board that
> I proposed... I never implied that the mere existence of a board
> guarantees a good representation of Debian's diversity.
Oh, okay.
Well, that might perhaps be the case, but it's not relevant to what I
think is a problem with the board, as I explained above.
> > > 3/ Aren't you convinced that your projects are good?
> >
> > Sure I am.
> >
> > However, it's not about what I think; it's about what the project thinks
> > is good. If I want to propose changes to our social culture, but most
> > people in the project think that's not necessary and that our social
> > culture is just fine, then who am I to go ahead and forcibly change
> > stuff anyway?
>
> If you're not elected, it doesn't mean that your platform is bad, simply
> that someone else platform's was preferred.
Our election method has ways to show the difference between "someone
else's platform was preferred" and "most people disliked your platform".
I will act according to the vote.
--
<Lo-lan-do> Home is where you have to wash the dishes.
-- #debian-devel, Freenode, 2004-09-22
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