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[Moshe Zadka <m@moshez.org>] Independent Count



Hi,

        I got this message here:

--- Begin Message ---
Dear Debian Project Leader,

As one of the candidates in the DPL elections, I feel that some remarks
made by the secretary in #debian-devel have caused me to be unable to
trust his integrity. I do not feel I can trust his words about the voting
tallies for the upcoming elections. I wish that an independent Debian
Developer be appointed for calculating the tallies himself. The other
developer should be a widely trusted developer in the Debian community.

Thanks in advance for addressing my concerns,
Moshe Zadka
DPL Candidate, 2003 Elections

-- 
Moshe Zadka -- http://moshez.org/
Buffy: I don't like you hanging out with someone that... short.
Riley: Yeah, a lot of young people nowadays are experimenting with shortness.



--- End Message ---
Here is a log of the offensive messages:
======================================================================
<Manoj> Hmm. isn't thefact that we struggle to make 50% turnout for voting
        indicative of the fact that we must have tonnes of MIA developers?
                                                                         09:15 
<moshez> no
<tbm> partly, yes                                                        09:16 
<Manoj> I think we should look good and hardard at the developers who
        did not vote 
<moshez> some people just choose not to vote
* moshez shrugs
<Manoj> there are certain activities you ought to be involved in
<bob2> moshez: how come?
<Manoj> merely uploading a few packages is doing a piss poor job of being a
        developer
<moshez> bob2: well, I didn't care very much :)
<bob2> oh, fair enough.
<moshez> Manoj: I disagree. voting is not a duty of a DD.                09:17 
<bob2> moshez: hehehe.  good to see you, yourself live your 'whatever'
       philosphy :)
<Manoj> I think we need to get rid of people with such a narrow view -- we
        need more people concerned about the project as a whole, and fewer
        one-package developers
<moshez> Manoj: I have more than one package
<moshez> Manoj: and at the time I didn't vote, I was very heavily involved in
         the BSPs							 09:18 
<Manoj> moshez: so I mean people with their head in the sand along with their
        own packages
<moshez> Manoj: voting is not that important.
<moshez> Manoj: *shrug*
<Manoj> I think this is part of the malaise of the project; far too many
        people have been let in
<moshez> Manoj: if someone takes good care of his packages, he's a good DD. if
         he makes good NMUs, that's a bonus.
<moshez> Manoj: without that many people, Debian would not be waht I like it
         for.								 09:19 
<Manoj> people who are not concerned with the project of quality at all; just
        interested in a paltry few packages and getting a @debian.org email
        address
<moshez> Manoj: namely, "has everything more or less well maintained"
<moshez> Manoj: *shrug*
<Manoj> the project is more than isolated well maintainewd packages
<moshez> Manoj: someone who does a great job maintaining one package is a
         useful DD							 09:20 
<weasel> re
<weasel> what is the best way to destroy a CD?
<moshez> we should have lots of those people
<bob2> Manoj: Do you think lots of one-package maintainers are a net gain or
       loss to the project?
<Manoj> ad we do not need to package all the software in the world at the
        expense of quality
<bob2> weasel: blowtorch
<Manoj> bob2: loss
<moshez> Manoj: note that I said "takes good care" not "uploads"
<Manoj> weasel: stomp on it
<dopey> weasel: fold it in half (well, its the easiest)
<bob2> weasel: a microwave is fun, too.
<weasel> bob2: and something I can do at home?
<Manoj> moshez: and I repeat what I said
<moshez> Manoj: *good* packages are worth a lot to the project, even if the DD
         uploading them does nothing else.
<dopey> weasel: you dont have a blowtorch at home? fie!			 09:21 
<tbm> weasel: I cut one into piecs
<Manoj> people who do not take a holistic view of the project are dead weight
<moshez> Manoj: I disagree.
<weasel> dopey: the data (or parts) would still be recoverable if a TLA really
         wanted to
<bob2> Manoj: How so?  Their packages are well-maintained, and they don't take
       anything away from the more involved DD's.
<Manoj> moshez: I know you do. I offer that as proof I am right
<moshez> Manoj: those people are the bulk of why Debian is god.
<moshez> good
<bob2> weasel: microwave is safe.
<moshez> Manoj: eh? do you feel I'm dead weight?
<weasel> bob2: will it damage my microwave?
<Manoj> moshez: your opinion, in reality, counts for less than nothing, as far
        as I am concerned
<bob2> weasel: for some values of 'safe', anyway :)
<dopey> weasel: oh, you want the data wiped ? oven, microwave, oxy-welder...
									 09:22 
<con-fuse> weasel: I use them as saucer.
<weasel> con-fuse: not with a copy of my secret key, thank you :)
<moshez> Manoj: yes, but you have yet to give any evidence for your
         opinions. extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and
         claiming that a competent programmer doing good work on Debian is a
         dead weight is an extraordinary claim
<Manoj> debian is not good because of unrelated packages; (which is largely
        due to upstream in most of the cases anyway); debian's trength lies in
        integration, and smooth interaction				 09:23 
<con-fuse> weasel: hrm?
<moshez> Manoj: that's irrelevant to what I said
<Manoj> people narrowly focussed on a few packages do not help with what makes
        debian really great
<tbm> weasel: you can send it to me and I will take care of it...
<weasel> tbm: sure :)
<con-fuse> weasel: you just have to drink the right thing! :)
* Manoj goes off to get coffee
<moshez> Manoj: nonsesne. you're using a weird definition of words to say
         silly things which can only have meaning if you change definitions
         midsentence							 09:24 
<Manoj> moshez appears to fit the definition of the quintessential slacker
									 09:25 
* moshez shrugs								 09:26 
<moshez> Manoj appears to think ad-hominem is a useful way to argue
<Manoj> do nothing, care for nothing (expect perhaps ones own self[and perhaps
        ones packages]), say that hard work and dedication do not count for
        anything
<Joy> malaise. man, where do you find those words :)
<Manoj> moshez: I am merely using your own words
<moshez> Manoj: wrong, I said nothing of the sort			 09:27 
<moshez> Manoj: I said that people who care for one package are useful. I did
         not say people doing other hard work are useful
<Manoj> Joy: I am merely a a durned furriner from a poor third world country
        with english as my fourth language too ;-)
<moshez> Manoj: you are *abusing* my world in dishonest ways
<strib> What's the protocol for versioning a beta release of a package?
<Joy> Manoj: yeah, i can see that ;)
<moshez> s/world/words/
<moshez> damn fingers							 09:28 
<Manoj> moshez: the general impression you give is consistent with my
        portrayal.
<Joy> Manoj: oh, BTW, we need to fix the Version numbering section of
      policy. it recommends using dates without (0.)+ in front, which incites
      epochs
<moshez> Manoj: *shrug*
<bob2> strib: 1.3beta3 or so?
<Manoj> Joy: good idea
<moshez> Manoj: you are slandering me.
<Joy> i'll file a bug
<moshez> Manoj: that doesn't really give you points in my book
<Manoj> strib: 1.3.0.beta3						 09:29 
<moshez> Manoj: nor does it make me feel good about you being secretary
<Manoj> moshez: I am happy not to get points in your book, since everything in
        it seems to be an anathema to me
<moshez> Manoj: again, *shrug*
<Manoj> moshez: what the fuck does my opinion have to do with being secretary?
									 09:30 
<moshez> Manoj: if you're willing to slander people like this, you are
         inherently dishonest. being secretary is all about having your
         integrity trusted.ou 
<Manoj> when I speak as secretay, you'll see my nick change
<strib> Ah, .beta -- I'll think of that.
<Manoj> moshez: ask around what people think of my honesty		 09:31 
<Manoj> moshez: I no longer trust your judgment anyway
<strib> Still doesn't work.
<moshez> Manoj: I don't care what people think. I'm afraid I've already made
         up my mind based on your behaviour.
<Manoj> if you feel strongly about your position, fire me if you win, or get
        the next dpl to fire me.					 09:32 
<moshez> Manoj: and whichever DPL elected (if it isn't me), I will talk to the
         DPL
<Manoj> good for you.
<moshez> Manoj: if it will be me, we will have to have a long talk
<Manoj> now, have a happy life, I am ignoring you
<strib> dpkg --compare-versions 2.0.6.beta1-1 lt 2.0.6-1 && echo t || echo nil
<strib> nil
<moshez> Manoj: since I don't think that in light of what you said, we can
         work together.
<Manoj> moshez: if it is you, I'll resign
* broonie wonders if there's logs for this channel somewhere net accessable
									 09:33 
<Joy> moshez: now now. no need to blow your chances of ever being a DPL right
      now.
<moshez> Joy: I care less about being DPL than about exposing Manoj's
         dishonesty.
<moshez> Joy: and have whoever is the next DPL handle this problem.
<Joy> you also take smack, by the looks of it				 09:34 
<moshez> Joy: look at what Manoj said
<moshez> Joy: I really don't feel Manoj can be trusted with the
         responsibilities of a secretary				 09:35 
<strib> After all, he's a figment of Overfiend's imagination.
<Joy> yeah, whatever							 09:36 
<moshez> Joy: in fact, I think I'll publically demand an independent count of
         the votes
<Manoj> this could be entertaining.
<Joy> moshez: your ideas are intriguing to me and i wish to subscribe to your
      newsletter
<moshez> Joy: and now that I've said this without knowing the results, it is
         obviously not because of the results
<moshez> whatever they are, I don't feel I trust Manoj
<Manoj> I feelso happy
<Joy> moshez: i'll take one ticket please to whatever you have to say, please
      keep talking							 09:37 
<moshez> Manoj: what is the proper procedure for asking for a seperate count?
<Manoj> moshez: so, you'll trust me to tell you the proper procedure?
<Robot101> erm
<Robot101> aren't all votes made public with a hash per developer?	 09:38 
<moshez> Manoj: you don't have any incentive to lie
<Manoj> moshez: of course I do; baiting you is fun
<moshez> R101: not all developers check
<moshez> Manoj: *shrug*
<Manoj> Robot101: yes, but that is safe only if everyone checks
<Manoj> Robot101: of course, I don't know who may not check so ....	 09:39 
<manty> afternoon!
<Robot101> so who else do the votes go to?
*** mrra (~user@157.182.195.241) is now known as mrra_errand
<strib> We could just tell everyone who voted for everyone else, like last time
<Manoj> we did not tell who voted for whom last time
<Manoj> _I_ was in charge last time
<strib> Heh, sorry. No offence intended.				 09:40 
<Manoj> strib: we did that the time before last, when the tech ctte chairman
        had to conduct the vote
<moshez> Manoj: the constitution does not detail such a procedure, so you as
         secretary should come up with one.				 09:41 
<strib> Had the dubious benefit of transparency and openness. Overrated, imo.
<Joy> Manoj: how did Raul determine the number of developers that time around?
      was the election even legal without a quorum? :)
<Manoj> Joy: I think there was a quorum count, though I have no idea what it
        was
<Joy> i noticed your stats don't include numbers then
<strib> Anyway, since <foo>.beta1-1 is seen by dpkg as "greater" than <foo>-1
        I can't use that name.						 09:42 
<strib> At present, I'm going for <foo-1>+<foo>b1-1 but that's so ugly it
        could uggle for England.
<Manoj> I take it back. there does seem to be no record for 2001
* moshez e-mails							 09:43 
<Manoj> strib: I use something like that.
<Manoj> wait:
<Joy> i don't see it on the web, might have to stroll the -vote list archive
<strib> ISTR there being something in dpkg that coped with beta versions, but
        I can't find it in the docs.
<Manoj> UPSTREAM=5.9.00161
<Manoj> UVERSION=$UPSTREAM-0.CVS
<Manoj> VERSION=$UVERSION.$(date +%Y.%m.%d).1
<Manoj> strib: so I add -0.blah						 09:44 
<Manoj> $(foo-1)-0.whatever
<strib> Mmm, cunning.
<Manoj> moshez: having the secretary come up with a protocol to doublecheck
        what the secretary has done is silly				 09:45 
<Manoj> moshez: you could never trust that protocol
<Joy> hm, no record in -vote archive for the first trimester of 2001
<Manoj> (I may just intitute something that says the secretary is in charge of
        the recount, and then where would you be?)			 09:46 
<Manoj> Joy: it was all new to him, and foisted on him in a hurry
<gadek> infinity: ping?
<Robot101> moshez: as the suspicious one, you should demand what you deem to
           be necessary to satisfy you.
<moshez> R101: I said. "someone else who counts"			 09:47 
<Joy> Manoj: yeah, it's not like i blame him
<Manoj> Joy: and the final tally was really a mistake
<moshez> R101: I don't know who appoints someone else, but whoever is
         appointed should be a widely trusted developer.
<moshez> I can come up with plenty of names...
<moshez> well, I send mail to leader@ with Cc to secretary@ detailing my wish
         for an independent count					 09:49 
<moshez> s/send/sent/
ERC> /nick secretary
*** Your new nickname is secretary
<Joy> yeah								 09:50 
<bob2> moshez: not cc'ing it somewhere public?
<secretary> I shall bounce that to -vote, since these accusations need to be
            as open as possible
<moshez> well the secretary is,apparently.
<secretary> indeed, I think -devel-annaounce is the place for it to go to.
* weasel volunteers to recount
ERC> /nick Manoj
*** Your new nickname is Manoj
<Madkiss> weasel: you heard me? when being in Dresden, greet people in
          Loschwitz :->							 09:51 
<Manoj> the secretary is not a public place
<Manoj> the secretary is a person
<weasel> Madkiss: parse error
<moshez> Manoj: the secretary is ccing it somewhere public
<Madkiss> weasel: In Dresden, there is a part of town being called "Loschwitz"
<weasel> ah :)
<Joy> do we archive secretary mail on master?
* Joy checks								 09:52 
<weasel> named after a famous DD? :)
<Madkiss> weasel: Rather not. I guess rather my name comes from somewhere
          there...
<Joy> nope, we don't							 09:53 
<con-fuse> weasel: what are you doing in Dresden?			 09:56 
* strib is going to visit Wuertzberg (sp?) in a few months		 09:57 
<_rene_> strib: Würzburg, you mean, right?
<Manoj> what does ettiquette say about psoting IRC logs?		 09:58 
<Manoj> is an IRC channel supposed to be a public forum?
<Md> Manoj: yes, but I don't think #debian-devel is supposed to be a public
     IRC channel							 09:59 
<Manoj> Md: is it protected in any way? is there a charter?
<Md> Manoj: no, no
<Md> but lusers are usually quickly recognized and expelled, so there is some
     control								 10:00 
<bob2> Didn't this get decided at the end of the neverending irc flamewar a
       couple of years back?
<Manoj> Md: if I am accused of impropriety, I want to make sure I can submit
        the log in question
<bob2> Manoj: it's a hidden channel.  it doesn't show up in a /list, and it
       doesn't appear in the whois info for people who aren't on the channel
									 10:01 
<Manoj> bob2: I don't recall that discussion
<Md> bob2: and it's on www.debian.org... :-/
<Manoj> I would say that kinda blows the secrecy angle
<bob2> It's only a nominal secrecy, anyway.				 10:02 
<bob2> People talk about it, and it gets refered to on public lists.
<Manoj> wel,, people, I am going to excerpt the logs showing my exchange with
        moshez, so people know what he is talking about.
<Manoj> consider this fair warning; and make your objections heard now	 10:03 
<moshez> #d-d is a public channel as far as I'm concerned. anything I say here
         is not a secret.						 10:04 
<moshez> Manoj: I assume what goes around comes around, and you would not mind
									 10:05 
<moshez> *me* making public excertpts of the logs?
<Manoj> moshez: feel free. I am doing a full log, the excerpt meant I am going
        to exclude the 13000 or so lines of previous chatter		 10:06 
<moshez> quite all right.
<moshez> I'm just making a summary of your quotes, with my edits clearly marked
-- 
How much does it cost to entice a dope-smoking UNIX system guru to
Dayton? Brian Boyle, UNIX/WORLD's First Annual Salary Survey
Manoj Srivastava   <srivasta@debian.org>  <http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/>
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

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