Re: logging no longer standard?
Hello,
On Sat, Aug 05, 2023 at 08:03:27PM +0100, Joe wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 15:09:41 +0000
> Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> wrote:
> > For those of us who do care, installing rsyslog takes seconds.
> > Disabling the systemd journal (if you want to)_ takes another few
> > seconds. This email took longer.
>
> But will the syslogs continue 'for the foreseeable future' or are there
> already plans to drop them from Debian?
For syslog to be gone from Debian, every maintainer of every syslog
implementation would have to decide to abandon their work. As these
are very popular packages, that does not seem likely.
I suppose it could happen though, if journald got all the features
of every syslogd. Still one of the design goals of journald was the
structured (binary format) logging whereas plain text logging is a
very popular syslog feature, so that still doesn't seem likely.
Who can tell though? It all rests on individuals wanting to do the
work in Debian.
> > The release notes in particular are essential reading since
> > otherwise a person won't know about major components that have
> > changed, been replaced etc.
>
> Indeed, but they just tell us *what* stuff has changed, The job of
> finding out what has to be actually done in order to continue doing
> whatever we do, still has to be done, and that's time wasted. Obviously
> things have to change, but backwards compatibility is very important to
> minimise such wasted time, as far as possible.
Have you actually read the part of the Debian release notes we're
talking about? I seem to recall them being very clear. journalctl is
very well documented. And if you prefer then it only takes a few
seconds to install rsyslog at which point logging is exactly like it
was in the previous release.
It's really hard for me to see this as a big deal. I don't know what
Debian could have done better, since pleasing all of the people all
of the time isn't a realistic option.
If you DO have good ideas for improvement, by the way, it is
possible to submit patches to the release notes. I've had a couple
of minor things accepted post-release. It's definitely a living
document. So something positive can be contributed.
> it's something else to learn, a bit more running just to stay
> still.
I don't know what to say to you. Computer use just doesn't stay
static. There isn't a single product, platform, operating system,
application or really ANYTHING in computing that I could point you
to that doesn't change.
The idea that it's "just to stay still" is similar to saying it is
"just change for change's sake", which is a common complaint when
confronted by change that we don't approve of. It does happen to a
degree, for sure - developers prefer making new things than they do
perfecting old things. Twenty years ago Jamie Zawinsky called Linux
a Cadre of Attention-Deficit Teenagers:
<https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html>. But most changes are done
because someone somewhere sees value in them. Even if you or I don't
always particularly appreciate it the way that they do.
Thanks,
Andy
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