Re: Net Install: Installation halts for disk change
On Sat 29 Feb 2020 at 21:45:48 (-0500), John Kaufmann wrote:
> On 2020-02-29 20:20, David Wright wrote:
> > On Thu 27 Feb 2020 at 17:13:26 (-0500), John Kaufmann wrote:
> > > On 2020-02-27 09:41, Lee wrote:
> > >
> > > [The free/non-free distinction] ... is well-explained, and in fuzzy principle I like the explanation. In functional terms, it only became an issue for me when the image I was installing paused to ask for a disk with needed wifi drivers. (See the thread title.) So I have two problems with free/non-free - one philosophical/operational, one regarding the image installation script:
> > >
> > > 1) If one can only make a working system with "non-free" drivers, what is the alternative? - a non-working system? What is the point of being a stickler about a "free" installation if that installation itself /requests/ "non-free" components? [Are all OEM hardware drivers by definition "non-free"?]
> >
> > The premise of your question is wrong. None of my three desktop
> > machines needs any non-free driver. One uses a firmware blob for
> > sound, which it never saw until it was 12 years old when I ditched
> > its predecessor, a Tucson mobo'd PC. I don't think Debian has ever
> > carried it (Yamaha ymfpci) in the timespan over which I've used it.
>
> But (as noted above) the "free" installation paused to /ask/ for wifi drivers for my Thinkpad, from "non-free" media:
>
> > "If you have such media available now, insert it and continue."
>
> I have to agree with that script: a Thinkpad without wifi could fairly be called a non-working system... which comes back to my two-part first question, about the philosophical/operational aspect of the "free" commitment:
> - Is it a choice between a free non-working system or a non-free working system?
> - Are OEM hardware drivers by definition "non-free"?
OK, I was talking about systems in general. Once you're looking at a
specific system, particularly a laptop, then it's much more likely that
you'll need either some non-free drivers or at least some non-free
firmware to get a fully functioning system. AFAICT my laptops are only
using firmware that's non-free, but that might be because even the
newest is over 6 years old, so there's been time for free drivers
to be acquired or written.
As every computer I've ever run has either been a loan or inherited,
I don't get to choose the hardware I have to deal with. In the past
I was given a Zyxel G302 wireless card, with which I could only use
a windows driver in ndiswrapper, but I don't use that now because
Powerlines work better.
But there are people here who post suggestions for hardware items that
have free drivers available, if that's a major concern of yours. They
seem to be items that I don't usually see in shops, so they probably
have to be ordered online.
> > I have no idea whether this is true, but there might be some intention
> > of evolving from cdimage to images, if only because using the term CD
> > to cover DVDs and USB sticks etc is confusing to some, according to
> > some posts here.
>
> It /is/ true, but I like your speculation that the directory branch "cdimage" might evolve into the branch "images". However, of course both branches are under the subdomain _"cdimage"_[.debian.org], FWIW. Once I feel comfortable that I have a working grasp of the issues, I will write to the Debian CD team for comment (and possibly to see if I can assist).
>
>
> > > > > ... I'm taking a lesson from this: some cleanup is in order.
> > > >
> > > > Whereas I think the issue is that most linux documentation assumes too
> > > > much background knowledge. But I suppose that's what the mailing
> > > > lists are for - a shortcut for finding out what info you're missing :)
> > >
> > > That's a good point, but I actually don't mind the OS learning curve ... My questions here have been about the Debian ecosystem and installation quirks, and I think I have learned some things that could be tidied up to make life simpler (which, among other things, could only help my objective of offering people a Windows escape route). With all the help received on this list, I have learned a meta-lesson: that the place to explore those apparent 'lessons learned' is with the Debian CD team.
> >
> > I would agree that the paths through the web pages might be made a bit
> > more logical; not just the ISOs but also the md5sums etc. But I
> > imagine the d-i people have a lot on their (few) hands keeping up
> > with building the d-i software itself (if indeed it's the same people
> > responsible).
>
> I don't doubt that, David. Still, I think I might contribute something, and the answers here contribute to that thought.
That would probably be much appreciated.
Cheers,
David.
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