Re: Solution to "pathetic email complaints"
On Tue 20/Aug/2019 23:11:27 +0200 Michael Stone wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 11:10:08PM +0300, Reco wrote:
>> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 03:45:31PM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
>>> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 08:39:43PM +0300, Reco wrote:
>>>> Unless a blacklist adds victims by AS number, a change of MTA's IP
>>>> (hence the hosting) and an appropriate DNS reconfiguration is
>>>> sufficient to sidestep it.
>>>
>>> And cause different issues, because you're no longer on an IP with an
>>> established history.
>>
>> A blank slate. There's nothing wrong with it.
>
> Except that other anti-spam algorithms take into account how long a
> domain has been around, and how long a specific IP has been in use for
> that domain. (In order to try to counteract spammers doing exactly
> what you're recommending in order to avoid IP based blocklists.)
Normally, change of IPs occurs every time you find a better ISP.
>> Blacklists are called that for a reason, they do not block whole
>> IPv4/IPv6 address space.>
> Sure they do. Even in this thread you've heard people advocate
> blocking entire countries. You seem to be arguing based on some
> particular blacklist implementation without recognizing that other
> recipients use other blacklists, some of which may even have policies
> that you might think are idiotic. If you're trying to send an email to
> someone whose provider implements idiotic policies, your assessment of
> their policies is basically irrelevant. (Though it may eventually
> encourage you to simply stop caring about whether the email gets
> delivered.)
Widely used domains usually adopt policies which grant decent
deliverability. Hotmail users are obviously happy having every new
contact's message delivered in their spam folder. I prefer a spam
folder not having to be rummaged through —SA score ≥ 9.
>>> You're also assuming that they're blocking by IP rather than domain,
>>> which is quite bold assumption since the blacklist is a black box and
>>> domain based blacklists most certainly exist.
>>
>> Haven't encountered one yet, but I trust you on this.
>
> As an example, see https://www.spamhaus.org/dbl/ and "RHSBL"
These lists are used for content inspection. If a message contains a
link to a bad web site, presumably inviting recipient to click on it,
it is worth blocking it. That's a somewhat poor technique. M$
rewrites links so as to redirect them to a local proxy. Another
approach is to use DNS RPZ.
>>> Or, you're trying to send to someone who's blacklisting broad ranges
>>> of IPs or ASs and you're just wasting your time changing IPs. Nothing
>>> like find that out after going down that road.
>>
>> And that's where "hosting" comes into play. Blacklisting, say, whole
>> Amazon AS is a little extreme, don't you think?
>
> See above. Also, there are certainly recipients who are more skeptical
> of amazon IPs exactly because they're so easy to spin up. Also, amazon
> themselves will ask questions if you start hopping IPs and asking for
> PTRs on each of them for email delivery.
>
> Again, each of these things is usually surmountable, but rational
> people eventually have to ask whether it's worth the effort vs
> throwing in the towel and outsourcing to a first tier provider.
It is true that many people turn to Gmail and similar services. The
reasons why they do so are certainly complex, but I don't think
getting out of blacklists holds a relevant position in the overall
statistic. I, for one, never had this problem after 20+ years of
running my own mail site.
Best
Ale
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