Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)
In-Reply-To: <[🔎] 20190528202437.ro7qososkbvmdpzb@randomstring.org>
>bw wrote:
>>
>> Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com>
>> ...
>> >> It's a good topic, if you think this is a bug, please report it.
>> >
>> >I don't think it's a bug. Just a dependency issue caused by the way
>> >systemd is designed.
>>
>> I hear what you are saying, and it all seems pretty accurate. The
>>thing
>> that you don't mention is that once you decide to deviate from debian
>> defaults, you really can't expect anyone else to sympathize too much.
>> You have freedom, you chose not to use systemd as init for various
>> reasons. SysV is not compatible with some newer stuff. I don't have
>the
>> list, but I have been aware of it for awhile.
>
>The one true editor is ed, and all you filthy emacs
>and vim users had better convert immediately.
>
>(That was sarcasm. I like vim and I support a lot of emacs
>users.)
>
>Debian is not supposed to be a highly opinionated distribution, unless
>the opinion is "there should be lots of options". Claiming that "once
>you decide to deviate from debian defaults, you really can't expect
>anyone else to sympathize too much" is just... incorrect. In
>particular, I expect a reasonable degree of sympathy for anyone
>who installs a Debian package from stable/main and doesn't get it
>working because of a problem in another stable/main package.
>
>
>> You will have to be able to navigate well on your own when you leave
>>the
>> mapped area.
>
>That's true, but the mapped area is much bigger than you seem to
>think it is.
>
>> I don't see how we as users can tell developers what to do. I don't
>>think
>> debian has that many developers anyway, they are just packagers, which
>>is
>> a different skill. Half the dudes probably have no idea what this
>>stuff
>> is doing. To me the reason there are dependencies in the first place
>>is
>> debian maintainers don't want to figure things out, they just want to
>>pack
>> it up and get it out the door, complying with whatever policy debian
>>has.
>> That's fine with me, because I sure don't want that job.
>
>I think you've just managed to insult every Debian user,
>developer and volunteer, while simultaneously being wrong about
>the nature of dependencies.
>
>Dependencies are a key requirement of shared libraries, which
>are in turn a key enabler of security and productivity. It would
>not be going too far to say that well-maintained dependency
>resolvers are the backbone of any modern Linux distribution.
>
>Let's consider a very simple case: we have an SSL library, and
>it has a bug in it.
>
>Without dependencies, every package that uses the SSL library
>needs to maintain and include its own copy. How many is that?
>How many people need to coordinate? How many packages will just
>skip the update because they missed it, or they're doing
>something else, or they are still swamped with other things?
>
>With dependencies, the SSL library maintainer builds, tests, and
>sends off the new version; it gets rebuilt automatically; your
>system picks it up on the next apt update run... and when you
>upgrade, all the packages that use that SSL library get updated
>at once.
>
>-dsr-
>
>-dsr-
These are some really great comments Dan, and I'll think about your point
of view. I've been using debian a little while, and not sure I'd agree
that is is not an opinionated distro. Maybe it was not supposed to be,
but I have seen quite a few things added or changed in the distro, and
yeah I'm talking pulseaudio, systemd, gnome, firefox/chromium, among
others that make me wonder if anybody is in charge, or do we just get what
upstream puts on the plate or what?
Hundreds of bugs in dozens of packages go unfixed, denied, ignored...
browsers just dumped in the repo and updated like what once every two
weeks now I get 300mb of packages?
It's obvious that we entered some kind of rapid development model a few
yrs ago. I got systemd installed a few yrs ago on my jessie system, and
had no idea for months that it even existed, or there was a change... now
that maybe was kind of insidious. But hey, that's water under the bridge,
we are where we are, and where we are is if you are an average user, don't
mess with defaults unless you want to spend a lot of time, and be on your
own doing research sometimes for years to solve your problems.
Just one opinion among many, and you know what they say about opinions.
I sure did not mean to offend, just thinking out loud, take it for what it
is worth.
Thanks,
bw
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