Re: Anybody know why aptitude is not installed by default in Sid?

[moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net>]

On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 18:11:48 +0000, Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Saturday 31 October 2015 16:37:41 Richard Owlett wrote:
> > Lisi Reisz wrote:  
> > > On Saturday 31 October 2015 16:18:15 Mario Castelán Castro wrote:  
> > >> El 31/10/15 a las 10:05, Richard Owlett escribió:  
> > >>> Martin Read wrote:  
> > >>>> On 31/10/15 12:02, Chris Bannister wrote:  
> > >>>>> Logically, doesn't it make more sense to make it so that you
> > >>>>> install
> > >>>>> with the minimum number of packages necessary, and then
> > >>>>> download any
> > >>>>> extra packages you want *after* the install?  
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Only if you accept austere minimalism as axiomatically good.  
> > >>>
> > >>> *YES* <grin>
> > >>> That 'yes' would not have been so bold except Debian defaults go too
> > >>> far in the other direction. E.G. I just installed Squeeze to one
> > >>> machine be cause I like some Gnome2 features that Gnome3 zapped and I'm
> > >>> not sure exist in MATE (am investigating).
> > >>>
> > >>> Applications->Internet lists 8 applications, none of which are of
> > >>> interest and does not list the only internet application I need
> > >>> (SeaMonkey).
> > >>> System->Administration lists 10 applications, only 1 of which I use
> > >>> more than once a month (Synaptic) and doesn't list one I use almost
> > >>> daily (Gparted).
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm working on learning debootstrap and multistrap to have things
> > >>> suitably minimal and powerful simultaneously.  
> > >>
> > >> I have also noticed that Debian installs a lot of "extra" programs by
> > >> default. For example, when I installed LXDE using the latest (Debian 7)
> > >> LXDE CD and, I obtained LibreOffice, Iceweasel and Deluge (among many
> > >> others), none of which are part of LXDE, and of those, I only wanted
> > >> Icweasel installed since the beginning.
> > >>
> > >> If you want to control more precisely which packages get installed, you
> > >> can also install a text-only system and then add the additional packages
> > >> with the package manager. It won't give the same results and isn't as
> > >> flexible as Debootstrap or Multistrap, of course.  
> > >
> > > It isn't Debian that installs all those packages.  It's the DE. All
> > > anyone has to do to avoid them is not install a DE.  You are given the
> > > option.
> > >
> > > Lisi  
> >
> > But extraneous cruft is not intrinsic to using a DE.   
> 
> Yes, it is.  That is why it is called an environment.  That is what makes it 
> an environment.  Without cruft it is effectively a window manager.

Not necessarily. A desktop environment can be a rather minimal collection of
programs- a window manager, desktop background thingy, file manager, and panel
qualifies as a desktop environment. At the very least, a desktop environment is
just a window manager packaged with some other useful stuff. Xfce comes pretty
close to just being a window manager (xfwm), a desktop (xfdesktop) a panel
(xfpanel), and a file manager (thunar). A desktop environment doesn't need to
be packed full of cruft.

If by 'desktop environment' you are referring to the bloated RAM-eating
monstrosities known only as GNOME and KDE (especially KDE) then I take the
cruft point.