Re: Installation
On Sat, September 15, 2012 11:32 am, lee wrote:
> "Weaver" <weaver@riseup.net> writes:
Hello Lee,
I look forward, breath abate, to constructive criticism.
>
>> Computed Partitions.
>>
>> / = 10 GB – Bootable ext3 – I would probably go for a little more than
>> this, because the newbie appetite wants to try out everything!
>
> They don't know what packages to select in the first place.
Of course not.
They don't have access yet!
Once they get to the aptitude interface, they will, however.
>
>> /swap = 4.1 GB which fits nicely with the 2 GB of RAM.
>
> It fits the recommendation of the swap partition being about twice the
> size of the physical RAM. Following this recommendation means that the
> less physical RAM you have, the sooner the system can go down because
> critical processes can be killed. Other than turning off
> overcommitment, the only way to prevent this is manual
> intervention. Therefore, make the swap partition large enough as to
> sufficiently slow the system down to give time for manual intervention
> and to have a chance of it being less likely that critical processes are
> killed. With only 2GB of RAM, you might need a lot more than only 4GB
> of swap for that, and 6GB in total isn't really enough anyway.
The average Newbie has an average box.
And, initially, at least, average requirements.
This is an i386 system, not 64 bit, and even if that has recently
overhauled i386 installs, it's only because the vast amount of users, in
the Windows world would be classified as 'power-users'.
A 'power-user', coming into the Debian environment, and confident in
his/her capability, would be bringing a more capable box with them that
would answer to their needs.
This is not the need set that we are discussing.
>
> But then, we already know that the D/i doesn't come up with good
> partition layouts by itself.
>
>> /home =105.9 GB ext3.
>
> Users will have to change their partitioning later. How do you propose
> they do that when all they have to work with is this 120GB disk with the
> swap and / and /home partition? There isn't any room to change
> partitioning.
What makes you think they are going to stay with that disc?
>
>> At the top is an annotation which says:
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> “This is an overview of your currently configured partitions and
>> mountpoints. Select a partition to modify its settings (filesystem,
>> mountpoint, etc.), a free space to create partitions, or a device to
>> initiate its partition table.”
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> This is beyond Double-Dutch to a newbie. If you said 'mountpoint' to
>> your
>> average newbie, he would be looking round for the horse. Likewise with
>> 'partition' (office furniture) and 'filesystem' (the technique required
>> to get out of jail when they catch him, now that he has his hands on
>> some
>> 'real' hacker software).
>
> Huh? What are you talking about?
So far, you seem to be the only one struggling with comprehension of this
aspect.
As usual, this will be because there is something wrong with me.
>
>> When you need to relay some information to somebody, you need to make an
>> accurate assessment of the communication level of your audience.
>> Otherwise, you simply don't communicate. If they aren't in front of you
>> in
>> order to do this, you assume no knowledge and operate from that
>> 'mountpoint'.
>
> No, you don't. You communicate just as you would, and when you don't
> understand each other, you ask questions and give answers and figure
> things out.
Through the medium of an installer?
In an "extreme" case, it may go like:
>
> "I'm using XXX to do something."
> "What is XXX?"
> "It's a ZZZ."
> "What's a ZZZ?"
>
> ... and I give them a link to an article on wikipedia or something where
> they can look it all up.
>
> Unfortunately, you can't look anything up while stuck in the D/i,
Yes.
and
> that is what needs to be changed.
>
>> Here's an example – rough, not at all polished:
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Partitioning
>> Partitions are allocated areas on your hard drive, set by the installer,
>
> "What is a "hard drive"? What do you mean by "allocated"? Will my hard
> drive be full when I make partitions because everything is allocated
> then? Maybe I better shouldn't make any partitions so my hard drive
> doesn't get full.
>
> What happens to the partitions when I quit the installer, do they get
> unset? What if I have several hard drives (like you actually do in this
> example)? Can I make a partition that goes over all my hard drives? I
> don't want many partitions, that's too complicated, and I want to use
> all the hard drives I have, so how do I make a partition out of all of
> them? 120GB isn't much, so I think it would be cool if I could use all
> the hard drives I have. That was so easy with windoze ... Can't I just
> skip this step? I don't really want partitions, they are too
> complicated."
This is a completely unnecessary complication.
Newbies want something that works and are not looking for complication.
>
>> where different parts of your working operating system reside.
>
> "What is an operating system? Do I have one that doesn't work, too?
> What do you mean by "parts of it reside there"? What about the other
> parts that don't reside there, where do they go? What do you mean by
> "different parts"? Do you mean I have different operating systems? I'm
> not sure, but I think I haven't installed an operating system yet, so
> what's on these partitions now? I'm totally confused now ... :(
Yes.
>
> What about my data that I have under windoze? Will it be lost? Or
> where is it? I've never had partitions with windoze, why do I need that
> now?"
>
>> The root (/) partition
>
> "Root? I think I've heard root is a user? Or what is "root"? What does
> "/" mean? Looks like a typo maybe ... What is a partition?"
>
> You're probably talking about the root file system. The root file
> system is a file system and not a partition.
>
>> is where all your programmes will be installed and
>
> That's not true. "My" programs are on my /home partition and some are
> under /usr/local, some are under /opt. See [1]:
>
>
> ,----
> | Chapter 3. The Root Filesystem
> |
> | Purpose
> |
> | The contents of the root filesystem must be adequate to boot, restore,
> recover,
> | and/or repair the system.
> `----
>
>
> There is no mentioning that you are supposed to install your own
> programs in the root file system. It's a bad idea to do that.
Once again, the requirement is to keep things simple.
>
>> must be bootable so that your operating system is accessible after
>> installation.
>
> Not true, you don't need to set the "bootable" flag on a partition and
> you can still boot.
>
> "What means "bootable"?"
>
>> The swap partition is an area on your hard drive where process exchange
>> takes place when your system is working.
>
> Huh?
>
>> It is the equivalent of 'Virtual Memory'.
>
> "What is virtual memory?" BTW, I thought you're trying to explain what
> a partition is. "What is a partition?"
>
>> The home (/home) partition is where all your personal and professional
>> data will be kept.
>
> "What is a partition? What's the difference between personal and
> professional data? What is data?"
>
> /home is an entirely optional file system and *not* a
> partition, see [1]. The FHS specifies:
>
>
> ,----
> | /home : User home directories (optional)
> |
> | Purpose
> |
> | /home is a fairly standard concept, but it is clearly a site-specific
> | filesystem. [9] The setup will differ from host to host. Therefore, no
> program
> | should rely on this location. [10]
> |
> |
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> |
> | Requirements
> |
> | User specific configuration files for applications are stored in the
> user's
> | home directory in a file that starts with the '.' character (a "dot
> file"). If
> | an application needs to create more than one dot file then they should
> be
> | placed in a subdirectory with a name starting with a '.' character, (a
> "dot
> | directory"). In this case the configuration files should not start with
> the '.'
> | character. [11]
> `----
>
>
> There's no mentioning of "personal and professional data". Since it is
> a site-specific file system, it's probably up to the maintainer of the
> particular site to decide about its usage beyond these requirements. In
> your case, that's the clueless user you have got stuck in the D/i, where
> they are at the wrong place.
>
>> By selecting any of these – arrow keys and 'enter', you can adjust the
>> size of them to suit your particular needs. This automatic partitioning
>> would probably be most suitable for initial use,
>
> It's far more likely to be most unsuitable. Put the root file system on
> a 10GB partition? See what [1] says to that:
>
>
> ,----
> | + Disk errors that corrupt data on the root filesystem are a
> greater
> | problem than errors on any other partition. A small root
> filesystem is
> | less prone to corruption as the result of a system crash.
> `----
>
>
> That lets a root file system on a 10GB partition appear rather unsuitable.
>
>> however you will still be able to adjust their size in the future if
>> needed.
>
> See my points above about the size of the swap partition and
> changing the partitioning later.
>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> There is absolutely no need to get into $ cat /etc/fstab at this point
>> in
>> time. Or separate /boot partitions, or any other complexity. They'll get
>> to that later.
>
> There is absolutely no need to try to mislead users. There is also no
> point in recommending a partition layout like this. It is not
> sufficiently thought out at all, can be considered as not suitable for a
> number of reasons and should *not* be recommended.
>
> You don't need to try to talk anyone into thinking that the D/i is
> capable of computing good partition layouts. It is not.
>
> You must not mess up "partition" with "file system".
>
>> What is required now is to convey the simplest of pictures,
>> but still convey the required information and only the required
>> information. This provides information, orientation and a jumping off
>> point for further advancement, without the confusion born of complexity.
>
> Don't try to justify misleading users. Don't mislead users in the first
> place. Especially don't try to justify misleading someone because
> something they need to learn isn't easy to explain.
>
> What do you want to explain to begin with? You didn't really explain
> what a partition is and started messing them up with file systems. You
> didn't explain what a file system is and left out a lot things users
> need to know to be able to decide about what partitioning they want.
>
>> The installer has now reached the stage where everything else is
>> pretty much self-explanatory.
>
> Are you serious? Give it to a representative group of people, tell them
> to install Debian with it and see what happens ...
Thanks, once again, it's been real.
Regards,
Weaver
--
"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government."
-- Thomas Paine
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