Re: Installation
On Sun, 16 Sep 2012 13:49:13 -0700, Weaver wrote:
> On Sun, September 16, 2012 7:51 am, Camaleón wrote:
(...)
>> Can you exapand that? I don't see any relation between using a bigger
>> image as installation media and having to update from the net
>> afterwards.
>
> The installer disc, unless you get one of the nightly updates, is out of
> date as soon as it is produced.
Yes, that's true for both media, netinstall and CD/DVDs.
> Updates occur throughout the installer procedure - security updates, for
> example.
Yes, and you can also update from the CD/DVD media although I wouldn't
recommend updating packages from the installation process.
I still fail to see your point but maybe I'm missing something obvius.
>> The netinstall simply takes more time for someone who wants to get a
>> full desktop environment right after the installation, that's all :-)
>
> No, that is not all.
> The Newbie has to discover how to access a package manager, then
> discover which category desktop managers come under. What the difference
> is between a desktop environment and a desktop is. what the names of
> these are. Any number of other variables. This is the complexity factor
> that needs to be removed.
Sorry, I don't know what do you mean here. Precissely, the netiso image
adds that "complexity factor" you seem want to avoid for a newbie.
>> I don't the your point here, sorry. Having 4 GiB of "/swap" for what,
>> exactly?
(...)
> I need Iceweasel, not elinks for the work I do on this particular
> install. On another install, on the same box, I use elinks - horses for
> courses. If you need an elephant, a mouse is useless.
Fine, but then you will be limited by the amount of RAM plugged to your
system. Swap can help but does not do miracles :-)
>>>> IMO, too much space for /home. I would split the remaining space for
>>>> "/ home" and "/".
>>>
>>> It depends on what you need it for.
>>
>> It's not you but the system. You have to consolidate your needs with
>> the system
>> ones :-)
>
> Newbies need time to learn that, but this is not an immediate concern.
Wait... aren't we talinkg about a real installation case or it was rather
hipothetical?
> As I have already said, a bigger / would be appropriate for Newbie needs
> and a little less home would work for immediate and ongoing initial
> needs. For many, a disc this size would be plenty ongoing. For others it
> wouldn't. This is something that each individual case would need to
> determine for themselves.
(...)
Sure, that's why a more paired disk space distribution will fit for the
majority of users. Remember that making room later is not an easy task
for a newbie.
>> "A minimum prior knowledge" is required for installing an OS. A
>> computer is not
>> a fridge and if you start by encouraging users to think that way you'll
>> be creating lazy users and this is nothing but a big problem in the
>> future.
>
> Yes, but if you require the services of a fridge, you do not need to
> understand the difference between a condenser and a compressor
> immediately, or which refrigerants are employed. If you choose to become
> a refrigeration technician a little further down the track, fine, but
> unnecessary initially.
(...)
Dude, you neither have to know indmediatley what kind of components (and
what are they for) yuor motherboard has solded :-)
The problem here is that in order to operate a computer you need to have
more knowledges than the required to operate a fridge, and you cannot
omit that fact.
>> If you only show a unique partition layout, yes, you're deliberately
>> omiting
>> the rest of the options.
>
> No, the rest of the information is there as soon as they have finished
> the successful install.
Changing a partitioning scheme once the system has been installed is not
easy, and for some setups you will need to repartition the full hard disk
from scratch.
>> I think all users (regardless their current skills) have the right to
>> be properly
>> informed, and this means pointing them to documents and sites where
>> they can read
>> and learn about the available options.
>
> Yes, but it is not obligatory to read the entire works of Tolstoy and
> Dostoevsky before you buy a plane ticket to Russia.
>
> All the rest of the information will be accessible once they have a
> successful install.
A successful install can be only achieved from a well informed user who
has decided consciously what he/she wants. Otherwise, if the user blindy
click "yes" or "no" and the result is fine, that's only "luck" and this
is of no help for the user.
> In my opinion, this is best addressed, within the Debian editions, of
> having all the links to debian resources - mailing lists, docs,
> man2html, /usr/share/doc, wiki, etc., preinstalled into the browsers,
> much in the manner that the mozilla/firefox links are now. They
> obviously see a need for it.
> Perhaps the need exists?
Documentation is already there once the system is installed and booted.
And there's also the web to find more user-cases and additional
configuration samples.
>> Unless you had developed an energy system that lasts forever, the
>> installer will
>> go away as soon as the battery or power supply go down, so yes, time is
>> something
>> to take into account ;-)
>
> Yes, but in the majority of cases, the install isn't going to be
> happening on a laptop on a desert island ;)
You never know when a power outage is to occur and for sure you are aware
of the unexistant Murphy's Law: "You never need from electrical power
until energy is not entering into your device" ;-)
>> "Required information" will vary depending on the kind of user, some
>> will need
>> a more detailed explanation than others and you can't start describing
>> the principles of the informatics here.
>
> No, but 'enough' is not the same as 'too much'. Clear, concise, coherent
> communication of basics is required. I am not advocating the kind of
> install that a babe in nappies can comprehend.
"Clear, concise and coherent" still sound too verbose :-P
The installer is not the best place where to instruct a user for the
available options: users have to do their homework.
>>> I didn't read about those until well after I had done my first two
>>> installations and by then I didn't need them.
>>
>> That's a bad step. Every user should read the docs before installing,
>> that's what
>> they are for.
>
> Possibly, but if you don't know they exist, or are confident in your
> abilities because you have done a couple of those complex Windows
> installs you have been talking about, many won't see the need. ;)
If you don't know they exist is because you did not search very deep or
because you are not interested in this. Today users have no excuses.
>>> I have actually downloaded the installation guide and have intended to
>>> read it,
>>> but here we sit, years later, and I still haven't.
>>
>> I wouldn't encourage any user to follow that proceeding, sorry.
>
> No, neither would I.
> I note the recommendation is up on the iso page now, but what if you go
> the 'safe' way and buy a disc from one of many 'approved' suppliers on
> the 'Net?
Then you apply the "common sense" unless you are an unresponsible user
and don't care about your system. If that's so, you can safely proceed
with the instal... but then don't blame the installer if things go bad.
> I think you'll find that many don't know about the bulk of
> documentation, even just that pertaining to installation, until after
> they have installed......or not.
They can ask. Again, today there's no excuse for jumping into a linux
distribution without a lifesaver.
>> Yes, but not from the installer, IMO.
>
> far easier to do it then than to collate the exercise later. The 'No'
> option is there.
Yes, and I would remove the whole PopCon option from here. You wanted
feeback and that's just my opinion :-)
> I think it also provides a psychological comparison between free. open
> source and proprietary systems.
> The installation procedure is an introductory one and I think
> 'introductions of this nature, although they may appear to be verbose on
> first sight, have a solid rationale for inclusion.
Again, this is my personal opinion and I don't think there's any good for
the PopCon system in the way is developed now. The PopCon idea remembers
me the Smolt project (which I also find it too much automated) which I
think is a waste of time and resources.
In this regard, I prefer a direct feedback from users.
>>> I think it's best to give the Newbie a GUI as soon as possible.
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> Then use a bigger media (CD or DVD) ;-)
>
> No need, even the minimal Net-Install CD offers this as default. At this
> stage, access is everything!
No, the netinstall does not provides a GUI unless you can download the
packages from the web.
>>> Nope!
>>> When I first installed, I wondered if the installer was referring to
>>> the ISP!
>>
>> Whatever. The user only has to know he is using something called
>> "proxy" and
>> he has to provide the proper data. That's all.
>
> Yes, but what is a proxy?
> As I said, something MAY be needed here.
Nothing. The word "proxy" does not have to be understod by users, they
only have to know that they have to fill that field.
>> I'm afraid what you call "efficient communication of minimal
>> information" is
>> what I understand as "verbose" ;-)
>
> Yes, but we are not trying to see it from our perception. We need to
> look at it from the Newbie perspective.
Sure, but remember that every newbie has its own perspective.
>> As I see it, a "simple install procedure" will generate "simple
>> oulooks".
>
> Everybody begins with 'a simple outlook'.
So as soon as you enlarge their minds, the better.
> With OEM installations, this is a fact of social conditioning and the
> enforced point of communication.
Sure, but we are not taking here about OEM installations.
Greetings,
--
Camaleón
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