Re: Proposed change for subscriptions...
On Sunday 12 March 2006 14:15, Kent West wrote:
> Steve Lamb wrote:
> >Anand Kumria said:
> >>>>Open posting is *good*. Yes, I get spam because of it,
>
> Just from the viewpoint of an average Joe, who has no experience
> running email lists, I DESPISE, HATE, DETEST having to subscribe to a
> list just to ask a quick question. Many times I've looked for answers
> to various issues, ranging from Debian issues to Windows to Maytag
> washer repair issues, and have come upon the "To submit your
> question, you must register first."
>
> Arghghghgh!!! NO! NO NO NO!! I DO NOT WANT TO REGISTER!! JUST LET ME
> ASK MY QUESTION AND GET ON WITH LIFE!!
>
> (Apologies for the screaming.)
>
> Steve, you may have very good points, and your logic may be flawless.
> But I hate having to register to post on an email list. As far as I'm
> concerned, Debian-User does it right. "Open posting is [indeed]
> *good*."
What concerns me is that Steve has some good points, but Anand is too
busy being right to listen. (I have to admit, Steve has been rather
strong in voicing his complaints.) There is room here for compromise
that could help both the newbies AND those of us on the list, yet
everyone is too busy saying, "I'm right, you're wrong," to listen and
Anand's threats to unsubscribe Steve do not reflect well on Anand.
So which is more important? For Anand or Steve to be right, or to
realize that there are points of the current system that help newbies,
but there are also points that hurt those on the list.
Maybe for some, the GMail filter works well and clears out spam. I use
SpamAssassin, and I have to go through my spam folder and check each
message because I do get false hits on e-mails that are sometimes quite
important. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I don't know how much of my
spam comes from Debian (I do know the e-mails from PetSupermarket do!),
but it seems to be that the current attitude is, "This is how we do it,
it's how we've decided to do it, and if you don't like it, you can
leave." Is it just me, or is that childish and exclusionary of any
possibilities for improvement? It reminds me of the Father who won't
buy his kids a new computer because a calculator was good enough for
him. It is also, from what I've seen, a major failing of parts of
Debian: those in charge are too busy declaring themselves right to
realize there is legitimate criticism that they don't want to hear.
In this case, there could be other solutions. For example, where do
people get the list address? If they find it on Debian web pages, it
would be possible to set up a form with a CGI script to allow
submitting an e-mail without being a subscriber and the CGI script
could include a spam filter. It would also be possible to add to the
mail list manager a routine that detects e-mail from non-subscribers.
I know challenge-response tactics aren't always popular, but something
like that could be set up so a newbie can ask a question without
joining and crap is still filtered. It seems to me a
challenge-response request is a fair price to pay if one wants help but
does not want to subscribe. Or a general spam filter could be used so
email from non subscribers is at least checked for valid respond to
addresses and other anomalies.
Now, before anyone starts saying, "That won't work because ....",
remember, I'm only pointing out ideas. I'm not claiming I have the
solution. I am claiming that what I see, all too often here, is people
in charge that are sure they are right or who don't want to take the
time to dig into an issue (as in a bug with aptitude and grub that I
brought up a while back where the responder was more interested in
closing the bug than in resolving the issue). They'd rather close the
discussion than accept that there may be a valid point that needs
examination.
After having watched several exchanges, I feel that is happening here.
Hal
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