Re: Java

[Dalibor Topic <robilad@kaffe.org>]

Pedro M (Morphix User <pmacv <at> telefonica.net> writes:

> 
> Alex Malinovich escribió:
> 
> >On Sat, 2004-12-11 at 16:52 +0000, Pedro M (Morphix User) wrote:
> >  
> >
> >>Alex Malinovich escribió:
> >>    
> >>
> >--snip--
> >  
> >
> >>Can anyone create the .deb package, so everybody can download it using 
> >>apt-get install.
> >>
> >>I think we can create a program to install a Java Mozilla Plug-in and 
> >>include in it the JRE.  If one creates a program, can package with it 
> >>the Sun's JRE.
> >>
> >>See http://wiki.debian.net/index.cgi?JRE
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >(Note: Taking this back to the mailing list so others can benefit from
> >the discussion as well.)
> >
> >The requirements for redistributing the JRE are very specific. You can
> >not also distribute something that is meant to supersede the
> >functionality of the JRE. Since Debian distributes Kaffe, we would be
> >violating the license.
> >
> >  
> >
> We would agree with other organization to include its repositories in 
> sources.list
> (co-official repository for Java).

You can fetch debs from blackdown already, if you feel like it, afair.

> >Also, one of the other requirements is that you redistribute the JRE
> >with software that substantially adds to its functionality. As Mozilla
> >USES the JRE, but in no way ADDS to it, this would also be a violation
> >of the agreement. (The applets that the JRE might end up running THROUGH
> >Mozilla would add to it, but since Mozilla doesn't we cannot package the
> >two together.)
> >  
> >
> Because of this, the only way a non-Debian package could include the JRE
> 
> >would be if it was a native Java program being packaged for Debian. 
> >
> 
> This is a good idea. What about a Java program that could optionally 
> abled or disabled by the user ???. It could include a JRE to run.

Undistributable by debian for all the various other problems in the JRE
 license beside the bundled distribution issue. Even if you can somehow 
make one of the many problems in the license go away, there are many other
unacceptable clauses in it that all have the same effect: they make the JRE
undistributable by Debian ...

It's not a choice Debian can make. All Debian can do is to look at the license,
and decide whether the license is acceptable or not. The copyright holder, in
this case Sun (I guess), is the only one that can fix the problems in the JRE
license. And only of they are willing to. They have not been willing to, 
though ...

> >But
> >by doing this we would lose the benefit of distributing the JRE because
> >most people would want just the JRE and NOT the program that it comes
> >with.
> >  
> >
> 
> It could be an ornamental (http://www.wiktionary.org/wiki/Ornamental ) 
> program. This is, only usefull enough to create a package (some 
> limited/ornamental functionalities/usefullness).

Nope. Read the fine license. It must "add significant and
 primary functionality" to the JRE. A program of any kind that's just
distributed for the sake of being able to distribute the JRE along it would
violate the license to redistribute the JRE because it wouldn't add "primary
functionality" to it, afaict.

Before you spend your time trying to come up with other creative ways to
circumvent Sun's license, plase take the time to study it in detail at
http://www.jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/jsr/tiger/JRE1.5.license.html

Many other people have been trying to figure out a way for more than 5 years,
afaict. It's a waste of time, both Sun's and yours.

Even if someone found a brilliant new way to deal with all of the JRE 
license's unacceptable clauses, chances are it would be

[] unethical
[] illegal
[] explicitely forbidden by the license
[] dependant on Sun's eternal goodwill
[] require paying an undisclosed sum of money
[] all of the above

;)

> >And, finally, the biggest problem is that the JRE license states that
> >any software you distribute WITH the JRE must be under a license that
> >"protects Sun's interests consistent with the terms contained in" their
> >license. In other words, you can NOT distribute a GPL'd program with the
> >JRE.
> >
> >  
> >
> Really, their license is a bad thing ;(

Yes. But that's not Debian's problem ... it's Sun's. They have not been
seriously interested in fixing their licenses in the last 5+ years, though,
 so I doubt they will ever be. 

So Debian's moving past Sun, and making sure that Java apps can go to main 
after they work with at least one of the various free runtimes. What Sun does
 or doesn't do to fix their licenses does not matter any more.

> But an ornamental program would not be interesting for Sun ;) Nor for 
> us, excepting to package JRE in Debian ;)

[X]  explicitely forbidden by the license
[X]  dependant on Sun's eternal goodwill

> On the other hand, we would claim a similar status to Windows:
> 
> "On Microsoft Windows platforms, but not in Linux, the Sun's Java 2 
> Runtime Environment's installer automatically installs the java and 
> javaw application launchers in a location that's on the operating 
> system's default system path. That means you don't have to worry about 
> finding the launchers to start your application, and you don't have to 
> provide instructions to your users for fiddling with the paths on their 
> systems".

That doesn't have anything to do with the JRE license. The JRE license is the
problem, not where Sun's installer showels things. ;)

cheers,
dalibor topic