Re: Java

[Dalibor Topic <robilad@kaffe.org>]

Alex Malinovich <demonbane <at> the-love-shack.net> writes:
> 
> On Sat, 2004-12-11 at 16:52 +0000, Pedro M (Morphix User) wrote:
> > Alex Malinovich escribió:
> --snip--
> > Can anyone create the .deb package, so everybody can download it using 
> > apt-get install.
> > 
> > I think we can create a program to install a Java Mozilla Plug-in and 
> > include in it the JRE.  If one creates a program, can package with it 
> > the Sun's JRE.
> > 
> > See http://wiki.debian.net/index.cgi?JRE
> 
> (Note: Taking this back to the mailing list so others can benefit from
> the discussion as well.)
> 
> The requirements for redistributing the JRE are very specific. You can
> not also distribute something that is meant to supersede the
> functionality of the JRE. Since Debian distributes Kaffe, we would be
> violating the license.
> 
> Also, one of the other requirements is that you redistribute the JRE
> with software that substantially adds to its functionality. As Mozilla
> USES the JRE, but in no way ADDS to it, this would also be a violation
> of the agreement. (The applets that the JRE might end up running THROUGH
> Mozilla would add to it, but since Mozilla doesn't we cannot package the
> two together.)
> 
> Because of this, the only way a non-Debian package could include the JRE
> would be if it was a native Java program being packaged for Debian. But
> by doing this we would lose the benefit of distributing the JRE because
> most people would want just the JRE and NOT the program that it comes
> with.

On top of that, *every* Java program and library packaged in Debian would have
to include a version of the JRE in its package in order to ADD to it.

The license has clearly been made for the windows proprietary software world,
where vendors ship some non-free program along with some version of the JRE. It
is insane in the context of a Linux distribution.
 
> And, finally, the biggest problem is that the JRE license states that
> any software you distribute WITH the JRE must be under a license that
> "protects Sun's interests consistent with the terms contained in" their
> license. In other words, you can NOT distribute a GPL'd program with the
> JRE.
> 

Most of Sun's non-free licenses have several nebulous, ambiguous clauses, that
are meant to give Sun an easy way to sue the skin off their enemies back (or at
least get 2bn dollars in damages). A 'go-to-jail' joker card to pull in court if
necessary.

Another huge issue is that the license demands that a distributor (i.e Debian)
indemnifies Sun, and foots the bill of Sun's legal team in case something bad
happens. That's a no-go issue for volunteer-run projects like Debian. Neither
can they afford financially to participate as a proxy in whatever IP wars Java
vendors launch upon others, nor do they in general have a desire to be in a
position where the legal future of the project is eventually put on the merci of
a commercial Linux vendor.

So Debian tends to stay away from distributing unacceptably licensed code like
the JRE. Beside, the free software alternatives are catching up pretty quickly,
anyway, so Sun's license won't be an issue in a few years, just like Netscape's
old browser license isn't an issue any more (or the old FreeQt license from
Trolltech).

The best way to deal with the JRE issue is to contribute to the free java
projects like GNU Classpath to implement whatever few [1] remaining
methods/classes/interfaces your code is missing, and to make sure that the free
implementations are better in every aspect than the non-free ones. 

If Linus had waited for Sun to open up Solaris ... we wouldn't have Debian now ;)

cheers,
dalibor topic

[1] http://www.kaffe.org/~stuart/japi/htmlout/h-jdk14-classpath.html