Hal Vaughan wrote:
Alchemists had three generally accepted goals: the transformation of base metals into gold, the discovery of a universal solvent, and the discovery of 'the elixir of life' . Like scientists today, they looked to the sovereign (the government of the time) for funding for their research. In their search for funds, they would let the sovereign believe that there was some possibility that their research would yield practical results, such as changing real lead into real gold. They did not find an exlixir of life. They did not find the universal solvent. They did not change real lead into real gold. They lost their funding.On Monday 03 February 2003 11:45 pm, Alex Malinovich wrote:On Mon, 2003-02-03 at 21:46, Pigeon wrote:Alchemy is an interesting example... Of course, alchemy itself is possible, because people used to do it. They were called alchemists. The fact that they never achieved their fabled goals is because the discipline they were following was mostly a pile of mystical bollocks with very little scientific method. Now, we know that it is possible to turn lead into gold, but it is not currently practical to do it on more than the minutest scale. To extend one's lifespan is notActually, an interesting point of note is the fact that alchemists sought to transmute LEAD into gold, and not something like helium into gold. So obviously, intentionally or not, they had some basic knowledge of atomic mass. (Probably a rudimentary one based on the observations of physical mass, but an understanding none the less.) That, in turn, rather dismisses the point of this being "mystical rhetoric" and, instead, brings it into the realm of scientific pursuits. -AlexActually, alchemists were not interested in the transmutation of the physical element of lead to physical gold. These were only metaphorical.In this discussion and in a parallel one, about "What Really Happend With the Columbia" (or something close), there have been some rather strong statements against the Bible and astrology.Just a side note to avoid the, "How would you know?" questions, let me say I do not take the Bible literally (I don't use it much at all -- I prefer other "sacred" texts) and I am not an astrologer. However, I have many friends who vary in conviction from athiest to "new-age metaphysicians" to funtamental Christians. I've also studied many faiths and beliefs.Alchemists were linked with astrology for a very good reason: both groups were interested in self improvement and spiritual growth. The only problem is, if one lived in the Holy Roman Empire, or most of Europe after the fall of the HRE, and one had beliefs other than those espoused by the Roman Catholic Church, one would find one's self in deep trouble (for example, you may have heard of something called The Spanish Inquisition). Those who were working on these disciplines hid what they were doing behind other claims and pursuits. It was far easier to let the church believe they were turning actual lead into gold than to let the church know that all the astrological and alchemical symbols and writings REALLY applied to spiritual concepts that did not fit under the umbrella of the Church's dogma.I've noticed, in the computer world, that many people are quick to dismiss the Bible as well as astrology (or anything that is faith based). I'd just like to comment that I know astrologers that have studied astronomy. I have yet to see an astronomer (or any type of scientist) who has done anything more in studying astrology than reading their horoscope in the paper (which, btw, serious astrologers scoff at). I know people in teaching and psychology who effectively use astrology in their work (without telling anyone, of course).I'm not saying it works. I'm just pointing out that the common belief of what alchemists were doing is wrong and that people who want to discount or denigrate any matters of faith should take the time to study what they want to denounce. (You can always start with any of the works by the ever popular Joseph Campbell.)I'm not trying to start a flame war -- I'm just trying to clarify a few mis-understandings.Hal
Is there a parallel to alchemy in the modern world? Paul