Re: Desktop productivity with Debian GNU/LINUX
On Wednesday 22 January 2003 11:14 am, you wrote:
> #include <hallo.h>
>
> * Hal Vaughan [Tue, Jan 21 2003, 11:39:12AM]:
> > comments. You're right. Truth is truth, even if it may hurt. I guess I
> > hit a vein of truth and hurts. Maybe you haven't noticed, but you accuse
> > this person of only whinning, while your response is nothing more than
> > excuses of why it's all wrong.
>
> Huch? As first, I did critisize _your_ statements and the efforts to make
> Mandrake appear the best of the best choice for Newbies.
>
> > Actually, I would ask you, as well, how long it's been since you've tried
> > to install Mandrake. I am NOT talking installing it on a system with
> > specially chosen hardware. In fact, when I started with it a year ago,
> > the first system I put it on included a Winmodem. Mandrake recognized it
> > and got it running perfectly. All I had to do to configure it was to use
> > the Mandrake wizard and tyep in the phone number, user name, and
> > password. It recognized
>
> So what, then you just have luck. There are dozens of Winmodem brands
> and almost all drivers are proprietary crap, with restrictive license
> and depending on certain kernel versions, mostly the kernel from Redhat
> or even Mandrake. OTOH, I know hardly anyone using an internal Winmodem
> nowadays. There is either an external device, or ISDN, or DSL over
> Ethernet.
Funny. When I was first trying Linux and had a different Winmodem, I
installed Mandrake. The Winmodem didn't work. I put a few terms in a search
engine and came up with simple, easy to follow instructions. My Winmodem was
up and running in under 15 minutes.
> > like it and we'll get more knee-jerk reactions from you and others who
> > are also in your deep state of self-congradulationary elitist
> > justification that you use to avoid dealing with humanity and life. Why?
> > Because this type of attitude is one of the biggest obstacles Linux
> > faces in reachign a wider audience and being adopted on more systems and
> > on a wider variety of systems.
>
> Fine. Why do /those people/ not take KNOPPIX instead of pure Debian? Or
> Xandros? I expect from any average computer user beeing able to install
> Woody when he is able to read what there is on the screen and count 2
> and 2 together.
Knoppix works well for short term use, but there are issues with installing it
on a hard drive. It's not "there" yet.
What one expects and what is an appropriate expectation are not always the
same thing. Obviously you have a lot invested in this. It is at this point
that your reasoning/discussion changes from logical and respectful to being
laced with disrespectful references and (below) ugly comments.
I'm speaking as someone who was educated and trained in how people learn and
perceive. I'm speaking as someone who spent ten years teaching students who
had trouble learning. This required me to learn how to work with not only
disabled students, but those without learning disabilities as well. While it
is true that a computer user who can read can install Debian, it is quite a
bit of grunt work -- researching and finding out what modules to use, etc.
I also find that seem to be contradicting yourself here. Your point before
was that this was way above the original poster's head. Now you're saying
any literate computer user can install Debian.
And, remember, your original response was to tell him to go away. It wasn't
to tell him to use Debian. It was to go away and get Linux when it was at a
consumer level and pre-installed (which is available through Wal-Mart).
> > On the other hand, that may not be what you want. Perhaps, instead of
> > seeing more people using Linux and being able to use a stable OS with a
> > reasonable amount of security, perhaps you prefer being able to tell
> > people (as you look down your nose at them), "I don't use Windows," and
> > have your attitude carry the unspoken comment of, "I'm just too smart for
> > it, and I'm much smarter
>
> Bullshit. You try to interprent my mail as you want to see me.
Notice that it is here (and starting, just above) that your comments turn from
logical to include profanity and even include weaker ways of denigrating what
I saw. This is a computer mailing list, not a self-improvement mailing list
or a human behavior mailing list. I won't go into details. I'll just say I
won't respond to posts containing ugly language like this or attempts at
denigrating other people's comments. (Like the comment immediately below --
there are many ways it could be phrased, but you selected one that indicates
what is stated is not valid.)
Oh, as for seeing you as you want to see me. I'm working through experience.
I learned, while work in institutations, how to size someone up quickly. It
was a safety issue. I had to be able to get to know a person quickly and see
what was likely to set him/her off and what his/her areas of anger, denial,
and frustration are. I would submit, on the other hand, that you are seeing
yourself as you want to. I dare to say that when you were typing that line
above, your heart was beating faster and your blood pressure increased. You
were ticked off.
In your words, (paraphrased and followed by mine), sometimes the truth hurts.
Sometimes it hurts so much some people refuse to face it. That's called
denial.
> [...lots of similar blah, blah deleted...]
In other words the points I make that don't fit your agenda or that you can't
just try to make disappear by being condescending or denigrating.
> > Now, as for XawTV, I found it quite easy to setup on Mandrake. I barely
> > had to read more than a few lines of the man page and had it working
> > pretty quickly. One would find it easy to deduce from that last
> > paragraph of your
>
> With or without scantv, that is the question.
I don't remember. But that's the point. It installed and it ran. Quickly.
Easily. Simply. That is the point. That was the point of my entire first
post about using Mandrake and not Debian. My entire point is that, in most
case, you can install Mandrake and "it just works." Not so w/ Debian. You
can install it, AFTER studying up on all your hardware, and you STILL have a
LOT of post-install work to do. And, in my case, I still had a video card as
old as 18 months on the market that was supported by recent versions of
Mandrake, Redhat, Sorcerer (Yes -- even source-based Sorcerer was easier to
install than Woody), and Knoppix (as noted, a Debian derivative). Woody
would not support it. A year and a half old, supported by a good number of
distros out there and not only did Woody NOT support it, not a single person
on this list was able to tell me how to get it working!
I'd hate to see that happen to a newbie (with a video card or anything else).
That's why I recommended Mandrake.
> > post (the one quoted most recently) that you are not only an angry
> > Linux/GNU/Debian elitist, but that you haven't tried a simple to use
> > distro in a long time and, basically, don't know what you're talking
> > about when it comes to this. (By the way, several reviews have rated
> > Mandrake as easier to install than Windows XP.)
>
> See above.
Your anger shows in your language and choice of wording. If you don't see it,
you are in denial.
> > Maybe I see something a little different. The fact that he's trying and
> > has tried different distros shows he is interested in learning. I
> > remember what
>
> Then he should learn, but using a specific distribution does not
> neccessarily mean a constanly low learning curve. There is lots of
> problematic hardware, applications not expected to run by Mandrake, etc.
> There lots of things to manage and they mean some additional work behind
> of configuration tools provided by a distro. With Mandrake/SuSE/Redhat,
> this may happen not on the first day, but few days later, but it will
> happen, and when it does, the lazy newbie will get problems.
As someone who spent ten years teaching people who did not learn like everyone
else, I find the world "should," when applied to how others should learn
rather pretentious. It's imposing one's way of learning on a completely
different human being.
True there are lots of problems w/ any distro out there. But a newbie will
find it much easier to deal w/ Mandrake than any other. But, remember, you
weren't arguing for any distro. You were rather curt with him and basically
told him to go away and wait until he could get Linux pre-installed (which he
can -- in the US Walmart sells computers w/ Mandrake and Lindows
pre-installed).
> > it was like when I, after not having used a computer in a technical
> > capacity in over a decade, started with Suse 6.4 and ran into problem
> > after problem with my system and, since I could not get the internet
> > connection working for a good while, had nowhere to go for help. There's
> > also the HUGE barrier in
>
> SuSE installs a large support database, iirc. Don't tell me that you did
> not find it.
Read the whole part -- the part about not getting an internet connection up.
Kind of hard to reach out to others NOT in your immediate area w/out an
internet connection.
> > million other things). Personally, I'd rather give him the benefit of
> > the doubt than to come on strong and say a lot of ugly things that boil
> > down to telling him, "You don't know enough to use Linux. We're much
> > smarter than you are, so go away." If you don't think that's what you
> > and the poster I
>
> Yet again. Please, stop exaggerations or shut up soon.
Get out of denial. Show some courtesy. And just stop being rude.
> > > Mandrake is not the cure of all problems.
> >
> > Nope. And neither is Debian. But, again, when was the last time you
> > tried it? If you haven't tried it since 8.0, then I submit that you do
> > not have
>
> Why is there allways this strange feeling, suspecting you to be paid by
> Mandrake to advertise their new release by cursing the older versions?
Nope. I've just found it works, and that was the whole point. Your
statements show that you haven't tried this recently, or have tried it and
not noticed a few things. My point from the beginning is that there are
options out there for this person who wants to try Linux. Your point was
that he should stay away. Based on my point that he should try Linux, my
next point was that he should try the easiest one to install. That's
Mandrake. Redhat comes close.
> > the experience in seeing how easily it installs and how well it
> > recognizes hardware and works with newbees to know what you are talking
> > about.
>
> As KNOPPIX does.
And has problems w/ a HD install.
> > > Fascinating, a new feature, hooray. I would be happy as windows user,
> > > but that's something I would define as bugfix for a good distribution,
> > > not more.
> >
> > See what I mean? That ugly, "I'm better than you because such things
> > aren't a problem to me" attitude creeps through in every line. Would
>
> Ok, that's enough. *plonk* until you stop to see the things like you
> wish them to see instead of how they are. I guess you think that you
> talk to another 3l33t h4x0r, proud of beeing a cewl LINUX user, but you
> should know that my initial motivation in participating the Debian
> project was to make it more smooth in the installation - IMHO something
> we managed in Woody, less or more (the number of typical pits and falls
> in the installer is lower than in any Debian relese before, imo).
And again, you're getting insulting, ugly, and nasty. You do this whenever
the discussion gets close to a topic you're obviously sensitive to and don't
even realize how much that says about you. I'm not going to call names (like
3I33t...) and get nasty. It's just clear you've got a lot invested in
Debian, but the point I've made over and over is that you are not seeing
things clearly. The fact that you are heavily involved in working on the
installer makes it clear -- you just can't take criticism and when something
comes close to sounding like criticism, you use profanity and call people
names. While you obviously have a vast amount of technical experience and
knowledge that I do not (and never will) have, I am going to point out again
I have had years of training and experience in reading people, reading
myself, and reading myself in reaction to people.
It's clear, from your reactions and behaviour, you do not respond well to
criticism and, rather than seeing your own strengths and weaknesses, you
would rather get ugly when the discussion touches on topics that are hot
spots for you.
It's also clear, if I wanted to, all I'd have to do is criticize the installer
on a detailed level, and it would leave you fuming and responding with a lot
of profanity. I have no desire to get involved in ugliness like that. I
prefer to discuss these things with people who don't react emotionally to
discussions like this. That's how things change and grow -- someone sees
something wrong or weak and points it out. It gets discussed and those
involved improve it. It's obvious that won't happen here. Anything I point
out in the install will not be discussed, it will just be reacted to with
profanity, and nothing will grow but anger.
For that reason, I will drop myself, after this response, from this thread.
I do have to add, though, that I've seen earlier Debian installs, and I do
have to compliment you and others in the changes that have been made so far.
There are some good points in this installer. I do feel it should include
more (such as a section making it easy to set up mount points). I'd also
have to add that, while I've heard some people whining and asking for a GUI
installer, I think the current format works well and stays on the point,
instead of adding a lot of fluff. (Personally, I think the biggest reason
for a GUI installer would be to do something like Lycoris did -- add
Solitaire so it could be played while installing -- but since that is
frivolous, there isn't a real need for a GUI installer, is there?)
Hal
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