Re: [OT] Suggestion for next Debian release
On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:08:14 +1030
Tom Cook <tom.cook@adelaide.edu.au> wrote:
> csj wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 10:41:48AM +1030, Tom Cook wrote:
> > > Wendell Cochran wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 03:52:42 +0100
> > > > Carel Fellinger <cfelling@iae.nl> :
> > > >
> > > > > > > > and here is really no interest in ridiculing anyone and
> > > > > > > > less someone who would formulate constructively his
> > > > > > > > criticism and suggestions ...
> >
> > For the life of me, I can't see what's unclear about this
> > construction.
> >
> > > > >> i really really don't want you to construe this as any kind of xenophobia,
> > > > >> but this phrase above just doesn't work in english. i have no idea what you
> > > > >> meant to convey by this.
> > > >
> > > > > I admit, I'm no english man, but the sentence you fail to parse seem
> > > > > clear as can be to my foreign eyes:) Or were you just kidding?
> >
> > No need to be defensive,man. I see nothing wrong with speaking,
> > writing or even reading English in a manner foreign to the dictates
> > of Hollywood, the BBC or New York Times. To insist on a correct way
> > to write or speak English runs contrary to the spirit of the GPL. It
> > would be as if the *native* speakers imposed a EULA on the rest of
> > the world that limited our rights to modify the language and
> > propagate our own "ethnicized" versions, while they could casually
> > say, "You ain't seen nuthin' yet" or "Hasta la vista, punk, in space
> > no one can hear your scream." Language, like open source, should be a
> > matter of using what works, not what some stodgy grammarian, film
> > mogul or computer science lecturer says it should be.
>
> This paragraph runs close to nonsense! Imagine (you don't need too much
> imagination!) if Micro$oft released a product which didn't conform to the
> relevant standard. I don't need to explain to you just how much ridicule
> they would receive; go look around the internet for a while and you'll
> see it. If someone wrote an HTTP server which 'spoke' the author's own
> version of HTTP then they would not be justified by claiming that they were
> exercising "the spirit of the GPL." If someone wrote an SMTP server that said
> 'RPCT' instead of 'RCPT' then that would not be acceptable. Why is it in "the
> spirit of the GPL," to speak a language in a fashion that people don't
> understand? If you want to speak a language of your own devising then
> you are more than welcome to do so, but people will probably not understand
> you and I would thank you not to call it English. Speaking a deviant
> language/protocol/whatever and claiming either that it conforms to the standard
> or that it doesn't, but that that is OK, is the way Microsoft do business,
> and it has no place outside Redmond.
Deviant is a politically incorrect term (but you're free to use it).
Yesterday's conformists may well be today's deviants. Imagine somebody
wearing Victorian dress to work or speaking Shakespeare at a board
meeting.
The problem with Microsoft would only be if they aggressively patent
their protocols, etc. I see nothing wrong with Microsoft "deviating"
from a supposed standard if others are allowed or are able to "deviate"
along with them. As a non-native speaker of English, I place this text
under the GPL (or is it FDL?) for you to borrow, criticise, flame or
/dev/null. That isn't being Microsoft.
> Also, to claim that it is OK to speak a language however you want is a
> very poorly thought out thing to do. The purpose of using a language is to
> communicate, and for it to be effective there needs to be agreement between
> the communicating parties on the format and structure of the language. This
> applies not only to human language, but it is a very well recognised
> principle of software engineering. Not only should a language be consistently
> compiled across various development environments and platforms, it
> should also be consistently used within an organisation to make maintenance a
> possible job. Go and read an IETF standard; they define precisely what they mean
> by a number of terms at the beginning of a document, so that the language
> is used consistently when talking about the subject area of the document.
> Is this contrary to the spirit of the GPL? Then go and have a look at the
> GNU coding standard. It defines not only the syntax and semantics of a
> language and it's use in GNU code, but also how the code should be laid out;
> where braces and brackets appear, when there should be a new-line and so on.
> Is GNU behaving contrary to the spirit of the GPL by standardising their
> use of language? I do not think so.
I didn't mean "however you want". What I meant was that the "rules" of
English, as an international (rather than a literary) language,
shouldn't be based solely on the usage of two nations. There should be
German English, Japanese English and Chinese English in addition to the
ones the British and the Americans are accustomed to speak. No, you have
already been preempted. Look at the manual that came with your
motherboard or UPS. That's Asian English for you! No use holding back
the tide.
You talk about standards. The GNU folks have their website. Now show me
a URL that claims that it has the final word on what is right in the
English language. Is there an ANSI or ISO standard for English? My
browser is waiting.
> > > > > To me it says, that we on this list have no interest in ridiculing
> > > > > anyone, and especially not someone that formulates his criticism and
> > > > > suggestions in a constructive way.
> > > >
> > > > As an editor I spend my life trying to understand what a writer is
> > > > trying to say. (That includes writers whose first language is not
> > > > English.)
> > > >
> > > > Despite decades of practice, the lines marked >>>> defeated me. They
> > > > still do.
> >
> > Anybody who has taken a few weeks of German lessons would have
> > understood the original.
>
> So the entire English speaking world should take a couple of weeks of
> German lessons, and some French while we're there, and perhaps some Russian
> would be of use, heck, why not go and learn Esparanto while we're at it?
> There has to be someone here who speaks it...
No, I don't speak Esperanto. My point is simple. Everybody should have a
second language (or a third, if we consider C or perl languages). It
gains you the perspective to see the problems of a non-native speaker
communicating in a language s/he may have learned only in college. If
people whose mother tongue isn't English take the trouble to speak or
write it, I think it's only fair that those "fortunate" to be born into
the language should take the trouble to try to understand the meaning
from imperfect message.
> > > I fear that I am forced to concur. As a native English speaker (NOT
> > > American speaker ;-) I can see the sense of the translation, but when
> > > reading the original have no clue what it is about. The phrase 'and
> > > here is...' can not be given the object 'nothing,' nor can it be given
> > > the object 'no interest'. Although certain idioms include such
> > > phraseology as 'and here isn't the Prime Minister of England,' such
> > > usage is not correct and is ambiguous and confusing. The correct
> > > phrasing of this clause is '...and there is no interest here...'
> > > although the 'and' is purely there because it was in the original. I
> > > don't think it is legal to begin a paragraph with 'and.' The use of the
> > > future tense indefinite 'and would formulate' is also somewhat skewed
> > > from the probable intention of the phrase; it implies that we are
> > > talking about someone who would even consider doing so, which I don't
> > > think is the intent of the writer. The position of 'constructively,'
> > > although avoiding the split infinitive of 'to constructively formulate,'
> > > is nonetheless somewhat awkward, and probably breaks some rule
> > > somewhere. It fits the rhythm of the language far more pleasingly to
> > > move this word to the end of the sentence. So, to sum up, a correct
> > > phrasing might be:
> >
> > Language has meaning only within a given context. And in the context
> > of this forum, "And here is" makes easy and perfect sense. But "That
> > is a cat!" (as proper as the sentence might be) won't, because I
> > don't have the reference to know if you're actually pointing to a cat
> > or just a scrappy little dog. To me the only criminals are those who
> > insist their Shift key is broken.
>
> Language does, of course, only have meaning within its context, but this
> is not the *only* thing that gives it meaning. The meaning of language
> is determined by *three* things; syntax, semantics and context. You can
> not destroy the syntax and semantics of a sentence and expect that the
> meaning will be understood solely from the context. God, in his goodness,
> has given us minds that can process language in phenomenal ways, and
> that processing is on the whole fairly fault-tolerant, but at some point
> a sentence becomes so mangled that its meaning is obscured.
In all natural languages, for every person who's misunderstood, there's
another one who misunderstands. Just because I understand you doesn't
me everybody will. Yes, you can destroy syntax and semantics, and still
have a context. I think we celebrated it last Feb. 14.
> It should be noted that I am not trying to villify or condemn the author
> of the original post. He has made a remarkable effort at learning
> English, but his learning is incomplete. I do not blame him for this. I
> personally know about six words of German, and, according to my wife, speak the
> most execrable French she has ever had the misfortune to hear. But the claim
> that it does not matter how English is used is one which I will not let
> pass.
>
> Regards
> Tom
If you didn't put that in, I would have thought you were flaming me. Or
maybe I didn't catch your context despite your good, grammatically
satisfactory English.
Cheers
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