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Re: Bug#55461: too many depends (that mostly should be suggests)



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I've closed this bug already (had to wait for the PR#).

Sorry for the commotion... some comments follow.

>>>>> "Rob" == Rob Tillotson <robt@debian.org> writes:

    Rob> "Juergen A. Erhard" <jae@jae.ddns.org> writes:
    >> Package: task-python-dev
    >> Version: N/A;
    >> Severity: important
    Rob>             ^^^^^^^^^
    Rob> Really?  Is this really release-critical?  Personally, I think
    Rob> _closed_ would be a more appropriate state for this non-bug.

Serious brain-fart on my side... sorry, bug is closed.

I look(ed) at the task-* packages from an "installed system" point: "I
need this, so let's see if I can use it."

Actually, I didn't use any profiles or tasks when I installed my
Debian all those years ago... I only used a profile once, when I
installed hamm on my laptop.  Utter failure, I can tell you.  Those
profiles (or in modern parlance, task packages) are just too big.

If there were some sub-selection feature, like in MS-Windows' install
routine (yes, there *are* some things that MS got right), task
packages would be so much more useful.

    >> There are too many Depends... most of those should be Suggests:,
    >> and some of them should be dropped completely.
    >> 
    >> Stuff like python-gtk is okay, I think.

    Rob> Three GUI libraries are fine, but two SQL interfaces are too
    Rob> many?

I didn't go into the Depends: very deeply...

    >> Stuff I would move to suggestions:
    >> 
    >> gadfly: if I use PostgreSQL, I have no use for this...

    Rob> task-python-dev is supposed to be a catch-all package, a way
    Rob> of saying "please give me everything a Python programmer
    Rob> might use, I'll sort through it later".  It's not about what
    Rob> you have a use for, or what I have a use for, or what the
    Rob> maintainer has a use for, it's about what constitutes
    Rob> "everything Python".

That's what I realized/remembered *after* sending the PR.  :-(

    Rob> Task packages will never satisfy any particular individual
    Rob> completely; they are a way of rapidly getting a lot of useful
    Rob> stuff, with the tradeoff that you get some useless stuff as
    Rob> well.  We can't tell in advance what is "useful" and
    Rob> "useless" to any particular person in advance.  For example,
    Rob> most Python developers probably won't use three different GUI
    Rob> libraries, yet there they are in task-python-dev...  because
    Rob> we don't know which one users want.  If you know what
    Rob> specific packages you need, task-python-dev is not for you.

As a means to get an overview ("Show me all the python stuff I could
need" "Okay, but I don't need gadfly <presses _>") they are `nice'.

But as for using them during initial installation, I still think most
task-* packages are overkill.

[SNIP reasons for having Gadfly...]

    Rob> I won't comment on the other specific packages you list,
    Rob> because the argument is the same for all of them: you may not
    Rob> personally have a use for them, but I could say the same
    Rob> about some stuff that you probably DO use.  If we are going
    Rob> to start arguing about what is useful or useless, we might as
    Rob> well drop task packages altogether and go back to making
    Rob> everyone scroll through the list of stuff in dselect...

As I said in my close message to the BTS, I think the task-* packages
are an ugly kludge.

    >> I think all the task-python* packages lack focus...

    Rob> They do?  task-python and task-python-bundle are just small
    Rob> and full versions of the basic Python install; if you think
    Rob> they lack focus, ask Guido to stop putting so much stuff into
    Rob> the Python library.  task-python-web seems like a rather
    Rob> obvious one, and it seems to be right on target.  So the only
    Rob> one at issue is task-python-dev, which is explicitly a
    Rob> catch-all.

task-python-web is not right on target, IMNSHO.  It pulls in
python-graphics, which in turn pulls in yorick.  Now, how many people
doing *-web stuff need scientific graphics?  Or, to make it more
obvious: how many people selecting a "*-web" package would expect a
scientific graphics package being installed?

    Rob> Maybe in woody we can have some more task-python-* packages
    Rob> for more kinds of Python programming...
    Rob> task-python-scientific and task-python-sql might be good
    Rob> ones, for example.  But for now, the current ones are fine.

As fine as the current system permits.  :-(

But let's leave it at that... as I said, I closed the bug.

Bye, J

- -- 
Jürgen A. Erhard      eMail: jae@ilk.de      phone: (GERMANY) 0721 27326
         MARS: http://Juergen_Erhard.tripod.com/mars_index.html
           "Outside of a dog, a man's best friend is a book;
           inside of a dog, it's very dark." --  Groucho Marx
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