Re: Censorship in Debian
On Friday, January 04, 2019 10:55:51 AM Russ Allbery wrote:
> Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> writes:
> > Nonsense unless you define being an adult as completely and fully
> > understanding exactly what the hundreds of people around the world think
> > is reasonable.
>
> Anyone who has held down a job in a typical workplace has already shown
> that they can understand what's reasonable and adjust to a social
> environment well enough to do just fine in Debian. (And yes, I realize
> that's *also* a challenging environment for some folks, and in a lot of
> cases we can be *more* welcoming than that, but I think it's being aware
> of that baseline.)
>
> > I suspect we agree on more than we disagree in this area, but I don't
> > think "My way or the highway" is the right answer beyond a certain point
> > in a worldwide project like this.
>
> It's certainly not "my" way -- it's some sort of consensus emergent
> standards among all of us, which changes in the complicated and intricate
> ways of all human communities. But every community has standards of
> behavior and social consequences, whether formal or informal, for
> violating them. There exists no place on earth in which you can say
> literally whatever you want with zero consequences, because humans are a
> social species and we interact with each other and those communities
> involve making judgments about who we include and don't.
>
> > Please accept that I am concerned that reasonable people who, none the
> > less, do not fully accept a certain political orthodoxy are uncertain
> > about where the lines are and find that chilling their willingness to
> > participate in Debian beyond narrow strictly technical discussions.
>
> Yup, sometimes it's uncertain and uncomfortable. That's because
> navigating social situations can be work. It can require effort. And
> yes, we all make mistakes (for instance, I just made one in going for
> pithy over fully explained, and made it seem like I was attacking you, for
> which I sincerely apologize). And it's a process; you step on someone's
> foot or put your foot in your mouth, and then you adjust, and pick
> yourself up and dust yourself off and try again.
>
> The part that I'm a little frustrated by is that I feel like you think
> people of a particular political belief are doing *more* work than others,
> and wow, that is not my experience at all. The people who complain the
> most about "chilling effects" are, in my experience, the people who are
> doing the *least* amount of work in most conversations.
>
> And that may still be a lot of work! That may still be really hard for
> them! I'm not saying this to say that they're doing very little work in
> some objective sense.
>
> What I am saying is that they seem oblivious to the fact that the people
> on the other side of the discussion are *also* doing a *considerable*
> amount of work on how they communicate, and when, and what wording they
> use, and have been all along. They're just not complaining about it,
> because they realize this is just the normal price of human social
> community.
>
> > I find this notion that if anyone has any concern or confusion about if
> > their opinions are OK to express it's only because they are wrong very
> > troubling.
>
> That's not what I'm saying at all, and I'm sorry that it came across that
> way. Having concern and confusion about whether your opinions are okay to
> express is *also* part of being an adult. This is a universal experience.
Thanks for clarifying. I understand your perspective much better now and
appreciate the apology.
For clarification from me, I don't expect a consequence free free-for-all
where anything at all can be said with no repercussions. There are absolutely
things that are not acceptable, but on the other hand, I also don't think
"someone was offended" is a reasonable standard (and I am not claiming that's
what Debian is currently using - but there are places where things seem to me
to be headed in that direction).
I am concerned about Debian becoming over-politicized (beyond the core issue
of Free Software, which has an inherent political aspect). I like that the
diversity statement isn't anti-anything.
My personal challenges with engaging constructively don't derive from any
particular political perspective. They come more from having a strong temper
over which my grasp is unfortunately not always adequate and being old enough
that I worry about language shifting under me in ways I can't anticipate.
Scott K
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