Re: Using Debian funds to support a gcc development task
On 9/29/19 12:48 PM, Hector Oron wrote:
> Missatge de John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de>
> del dia dg., 29 de set. 2019 a les 12:20:
>
>> I communicated the issue to multiple mailing lists, so I assume the active
>> m68k people have received my mail. But I haven't heard back from them.
>
> In particular, have you reached to Andreas Schwab?
> (> Is there kernel and toolchain support? At what level?
> > Yes. Andreas Schwab does glibc and gcc )
He's a colleague of mine at SUSE, so, yes, I asked him. It's not easy
to reach him from time to time so I haven't heard back from him yet
(I'm not working in Nuremberg, so I can't just visit his office).
>>> Is there any real m68k hardware available nowadays or is it all
>>> virtual&emulated?
>>
>> Yes, there are the Apollo accelerators for one:
>>
>>> https://www.apollo-accelerators.com/
>>
>> And there are embedded open source Coldfire boards being developed:
>>
>>> http://sysam.it/cff_amcore.html
>>> http://sysam.it/cff_stmark2.html
>
> That looks like MMU-less hardware, would those devices benefit from
> running Debian? I assume they are better suited for uClinux
> distribution.
They use gcc as well. And that doesn't mean there won't be any hardware
with MMUs in the near future. At least for Apollo, an MMU is in the make.
>> What are the use cases for the port?
>>
>> The m68k CPU has still a very large hobbyist scene as it's a CPU with an easy
>> to learn assembler. There are many hobbyist forums like a1k.org, amiga.org,
>> eab.abime.net, www.atari-forum.com and so on with people working on open
>> hard- and software projects around the m68k CPU.
>>
>> As Linus stated in his mail, the Amiga never dies:
>>
>>> https://lkml.org/lkml/2019/9/24/993
>
> Reaching those forums or even organizing a crowd funding campaign
> might be more appropriate.
That's what I am already doing. I'm not asking Debian alone, of course.
>> But I think the list on the page archive criteria is a bit dishonest as
>> well when it asks "Are machines available to buy for the general public?"
>> while I don't think an IBM Z mainframe is available to buy for the general
>> public.
>>
>> I don't think anyone outside banks, goverments and very large companies
>> can buy an IBM Z mainframe, yet Debian provides an official port for these.
>
> The page is not dishonest, it asks for information, to be able to take
> decisions.
> In particular for s390x you can read on
> https://wiki.debian.org/ArchiveQualification/s390x
> It is really up to the teams if they take the burden of the work.
If you read that page, you see that a lot of the things mentioned there apply
for m68k as well. It even mentions that people are using s390x for just playing
around with the architecture. And the argument of emulation is being brought up
as well. So, effectively, the s390x port is not more useful to the average
Debian user as m68k.
> In other words, having hardware available is always great, however
> there are special cases and teams decide to accomodate if they believe
> it is worth it (at least that's my understanding).
But then this should apply for all ports and not just s390x.
Thanks,
Adrian
--
.''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
: :' : Debian Developer - glaubitz@debian.org
`. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de
`- GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913
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