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Re: Are online services also software for Debian's rules?

 ❦ 12 août 2017 07:37 GMT, "Dr. Bas Wijnen" <wijnen@debian.org> :

>> > That is a disservice to our users.  While for many users this is true, those
>> > users will have contrib (and probably non-free) enabled in their sources.list.
>> > So moving the package to contrib doesn't change anything for them.  The only
>> > people who see a difference are the ones who asked not to see this kind of
>> > software, and they will no longer see it.  That is a great outcome, not
>> > something to get upset about.
>> By default, contrib and non-free repositories are not enabled. They are
>> also unsupported from the security team. They are not part of
>> Debian. They are an additional service provided to users requesting it
>> specifically.
> Your argument seems to be:
> Debian cares about free software.
> Therefore, Debian does not enable contrib and non-free by default.
> Therefore, users may not see non-free related software.  This is a problem.
> Let's fix it by pushing that software into main anyway.

No, _your_ argument is that contrib and non-free are part of Debian and
are just a fine recipient for random software. I just emphasize the fact
they are not part of Debian.

My argument is that services are not software. Free software depending
on non-free services (something we don't define in Debian) should be in
main. Like they always have been.

> In other words: We care about free software, therefore we should put non-free
> (related) software in main.  What?

Strawman argument. Please, refrain from that.

> If you believe it is a problem that our users don't have access to the software
> in contrib by default, then propose to fix that.  The obvious way to do that
> would be by enabling contrib by default, not by moving software that belongs in
> contrib into main.

Contrib cannot be enabled by default, it is not part of Debian. It's an
additional service using Debian infrastructure. Policy is quite clear
about that.

And honestly, I don't have to do a thing. Nothing will change. Free
software using "non-free services" will stay in main because they meet
the proper requirements (policy 2.2.1).

>> Debian is about free software. There is nothing in DFSG about "free
>> services". How do you know if a service is implemented with free
>> software or not? Amazon S3 could be free software, but only distributed
>> internally at Amazon.
> They can be, but that is irrelevant to this discussion.  There is no question
> that the client is free software.  If the server is not packaged in main, that
> means this free client software belongs in contrib.  Whether that is because it
> is non-free or for some other reason does not matter.  That is, unless you are
> claiming that their service is not "software".  Are you?

Yes, I am! They are services. Even the FSF acknowledges they are
different. They have created the AGPL for that.
O, what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive.
		-- Sir Walter Scott, "Marmion"

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