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Re: FYI: debian-legal is discussing the inclusion in the Debian archive of "erotic" interactive fiction depicting the sexual abuse of children

On 11/03/2014, Mateusz Jończyk <mat.jonczyk@o2.pl> wrote:
> W dniu 11.03.2014 15:52, Sam Kuper pisze:
>> On 11/03/2014, Joseph Neal <vlvtelvis@speakeasy.net> wrote:
> According to statistics [2]
> "One in 20 children (4.8%) have experienced contact sexual abuse." This has
> probably a devastating effect on their lives.

That is very likely true, and tragic, but I don't see what it has to
do with the present discussion.

> This is not a "moral panic". A real harm is being done.

There is a difference between abuse and discussions of it. The former
is a harm; the latter, not necessarily. I am defending non-harmful
literary discussions of abuse - and I gave three prominent creative
examples published by major corporations and available from major
retailers. I have no wish to defend actual abuse; quite the contrary.

My point was that if legal (in some jurisdictions) and literary
discussions of abuse are completely excluded from Debian, then an act
of censorship has been performed, which may itself be viewed as a real
- though different - harm.

> According to the Debian Policy Manual [1]:
> "We reserve the right to restrict files from being included anywhere in our
> archives if
>     their use or distribution would break a law,
>     there is an ethical conflict in their distribution or use,
>     [...]"

Yes, and that - a reserved right to restrict - is fair enough. Without
that, Debian would have to include absolutely everything submitted!

Joseph Neal called for something much stronger: "such a resounding
rejection that nobody considers submitting something like this again
in the future," without specifying how broadly "something like this"
should be interpreted. Would it include Nabokov? D. H. Lawrence?

> A sane person tries to judge morally their actions, which often includes
> predicting
> their consequences. It has been mentioned here already and I find it likely
> that
> the game may trigger some people sick of paedophilia and more harm may be
> done.

You're using "trigger" here in a way that's unclear to me.

However, your underlying point is that you "find it likely" that the
inclusion of Unteralterbach in Debian would cause "more harm to be

Maybe you're right, maybe you're not, but you haven't supported your
conclusion with any evidence.

> Not everything that can be told should be told. You would probably agree
> that child
> porn (movies, images) should be banned.

I agree that actual abuse should be banned; as should the intentional
creation or exploitation of recordings of actual abuse.

> As has been mentioned previously [3], including this will have a devastating
> effect
> on Debian.

Assuming that by "this" you mean specifically Unteralterbach:

(1) I personally haven't called for its inclusion (or its exclusion).
(2) It's far from certain whether its inclusion would devastate
Debian; this might well depend upon how it was packaged.

> Please send everything to debian-devel-games so that the thread will be easy
> to
> follow.


> [1] http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive.html#s-pkgcopyright
> [2]
> http://www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/resourcesforprofessionals/sexualabuse/statistics_wda87833.html
> [3] https://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2014/03/msg00035.html



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