Re: The Sv*n L*th*r drinking game
On Sat, Jul 24, 2004 at 06:34:24PM -0400, Glenn Maynard wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 24, 2004 at 02:57:54PM -0400, lex@cc.gatech.edu wrote:
> > Actually, the process Sven describes here seems to be happening. Some
> > people on the list abuse the other participants until they leave, and
> > then claim consensus afterwards. They may just as well procede to say
> > that whoever left is an unclued idiot, because they are not around to
> > defend themselvees anyway. Sven's arguments seem clear and important
> > to me, and it behooves us to pay attention and address them.
>
> Sven's messages are constantly and deliberately laced with derision and
> insults--in almost *every* message he posts. Perhaps returning it with
So, please show me the derision and insults in the serious thread i started
later ? And do you not think that making half-backed assertion is not an
insult to the inteligence of both the contributors here, and the upstream
author whose licence you are discussing.
> a few tongue-in-cheek pokes such as this thread isn't the height of
> professionalism, but he's without a doubt earned it (and none of us are
> being paid to put up with it).
Ha, sure, and i am paid to support endless threads of your rambling ? rambling
which always lead to the non-freeness of the QPL, but which is not
proffesional enough to be of any use to anyone.
Also, you find it harsh how i threated you, but i am not allowed to speak
about how i was insulted by Branden's mob on irc, and it held no common
comparison to what i used here, which was rather mild and long in building.
So, two cases two measures, and those who do belong have every right.
> If he's not willing to present his arguments in a manner that doesn't
> require us to put up with constant derision, then I don't think his
> arguments are worth reading; nobody in Debian has an obligation to suffer
And, so you clearly didn't read the new thread i started. And you have no
problem of me being forced to read enless discussion about chinese dissidents,
who don't really have an influence here if you read the text, and in general
is a bad test. And i was _forced_ to read those rambling in order to catch up
to the so claimed "consensus" which would have kicked the year-long work of
various debian maintainers from debian.
> his behavior. If he wants to convince me, at least, he'll have to
> start by being civil, and as respectful as one stranger is expected to
> be to another on a mailing list. He consciously refuses to do so, and
> I believe anyone who chooses to ignore him as a result is completely
> justified.
And, does this not cut both way ? And does civilness not including reading the
material proposed, and makind arguments based on actual data, instead of pure
rambling like you see in the start of this thread ?
> Even the most heated arguments I've seen on this list (say, Branden vs
> T.B.--a DD Deathmatch) have been far more productive, civil and rational,
I have some trouble with Branden and civil in the same sentence. And the fact
that he doesn't spill his bile here, but use less openly archived forums for
his insults and bullying tactics, ...
> and less derisive and condescending than Sven's behavior towards all of us.
Well, if your argumentation has been upto it, maybe i wouldn't have needed to
be so condescending, but this was clearly not the case.
You know debian-legal has some extreme power in debian, power only matched by
the RM and the ftp-masters, since concensus here will mean almost-automatic
removal of a package from the archive without much way to change it. With this
power comes a responsability, a responsability of strong arguing and reaching
conclusions which are without doubt. I have not seen that happening in this
case, and given the power debian-legal holds, you wonder how i was not upset
about it ?
> > If you think Sven and I are exagerating, let me toss out a few examples from
> > just the last couple of weeks:
>
> Almost all of these are a direct consequence of Sven's behavior; we're
> all tired of it, and none of us can be blamed for saying so.
And you don't think that my behavior was a direct consequence of the way
debian-legal operate, and the sub-par decision process you have here ? As well
as the mistreatment i got over past involvement. Others who are equally
exhasperated, you probably don't see here, since they fear to come here, but i
would say that this exhasperation is held by other DD than just me.
Friendly,
Sven Luther
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