Re: Back to Windows??
On Monday 19 February 2001 21:46, you wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 08:12:09PM +0100, Hans Verschoor and Jennie Kohsiek
wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Craig T. Milling" <c-milli@physics.uiuc.edu>
> > To: "'Debian-Laptop (E-mail)" <debian-laptop@lists.debian.org>
> > Cc: "Christopher Wolf" <debianlists@thewolfden.org>; "Craig Milling"
> > <ctmilling@yahoo.com>
> > Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 6:44 PM
> > Subject: Re: Back to Windows??
> >
> > > Here are some concrete positives (in my experience) for why you would
> > > *want* to run Linux as more than just a hobbyist.
> > >
> > > (1) You control the interface. You have a choice of window managers,
> > > GNOME, KDE. *You* get to decide how you want to interact with the
> > > computer, not Bill Gates.
> >
> > Hans:
> > In the first place these window managers are Windows look-alikes,
> > especially KDE that was intentionally designed to be as Windows as
> > Windows can be i.m.h.o. In the second place, I do not have this
> > insurpressibke urge to "decide by myself" if others offer a good
> > solution, named Bill or not.
>
> Fair enough, although these environments are not Windows look-alikes (or
> work-alikes).
>
> > > (2) Stability. It is a pleasure knowing that I can leave my laptop
> > > running for days/weeks at a time and it won't crash. Even if there is
> > > a misbehaving application, it can be killed without destabilizing
> > > everything else.
> >
> > Hans.
> > I do run KDE, and the browser and office applications crash on a regular
> > basis and in fact much more often than the Seattle counterparts.
>
> These are immature applications. They will get more stable, especially if
> you report your bugs.
>
> > > (3) Free. As in beer. I really like the fact that the next
> > > kernel/GNOME/gnuplot/emacs upgrade won't cost me $90-$100. It's free.
> > > Yes it costs some time, but (2) makes up for that.
> >
> > Hans:
> > The money issue is relative, Japanese companies are now kicking Linux out
> > because they discover that they are spending huge sums at "Linux
> > specialists" maintaining their systems.
>
> Unix systems = 1 administrator. Windows systems = 10 admin/helpdesk
> personnel. I don't think that Windows is any cheaper to maintain or
> support. It has one advantage -- more people are familiar with it.
That's not true, that's really not true except for your last remark of
course.
>
> > > (4) Free. As in speech. The source code is open, which means no one
> > > has control over your computer. It also helps combat software
> > > obsolence and forced upgrades by having file formats open.
> >
> > Hans:
> > I don't follow this argumentation. The fact that the source is open is
> > in no relation that your computer is not controlled. I am not an OS
> > expert, I don't want to be an OS expert I don't want to look into sources
> > that are not part of my core business, I want the software to work
> > correctly and therefore yes: Any software controls my computer.
>
> This is the driving force of it all, whether you want to jump on board or
> not, this is why the "revolution" has occurred so rapidly.
I stiill suspect that this is largely driven by anti-M feelings. And yes, I'm
not very happy with the Seattle company either.
>
> > > (5) Unixisms: True multitasking, multiuser capabilities. You don't
> > > have to worry about nuking important files (as long as your not root!).
> > > You don't have to worry about being bit by the LOVE BUG. You can lock
> > > down services to hold script-kiddies at bay. You can share your
> > > computer with other users w/o them messing up your files and desktop.
> >
> > Hans:
> > Misargumentation, the file protection system of let's say NT or W2000 is
> > much more sophisticated than UNIX, alas for you but that's a fact and I
> > will not share my computer. And for viruses, yes you have to be a bit
> > more careful, a bit less naive, that's true.
>
> You're arguing about ACLs. Linux (I believe) supports ACLs in kernel 2.4.
> Regardless, the Unix file "protection" paradigm is simple, more manageable
> and usable than access control lists. "Sophistication" doesn't make
> something better.
It does, that's why it's called sophisticated.
About the Unix paradigm, we have a lot of trouble when mapping role-groups
of users to UNIX file permissions in a complex application server project,
so this simplicity works against us.
>
> > > It is difficult. It seems everything involving setup and installation
> > > is difficult the first time, but the time spent is an investment, not a
> > > loss. The next time you do something it gets easier. I would recommend
> > > you aim low. Set up a dual boot configuration so you can always use
> > > Windows. Then install Linux and work on it a little bit at a time. Get
> > > a command line going, then X, then compile a kernel specific to your
> > > machine. First get your NIC going, then sound card, then ... Yes it
> > > may take awhile, but you will find yourself being slowly won over to
> > > Linux. Then the next computer you get, things will go much faster.
> >
> > Hans:
> > Again, from my objectives of using my computer, these investment are pure
> > losses. I don't want a dual boot system, my computer is a server, so
> > hopefully boots a few times a year. I have no intention to become a
> > kernel hacker, an inventoe or a whizkid, my objective is to have a stable
> > simple server machine on the shortest term possible. And don't forget,
> > companies switching to Linux usually have exactly this reason.
>
> If you just want a server, I'm not certain why you run KOffice. Anyhow,
> you've made a very sound choice with Linux, I hope that you continue to use
> it.
Just to get to know it. In time we will not run it on the server any more.
>
> > > Don't forget that a computer is just a tool. If you need all your
> > > hardware, use the preinstalled OS. If you also need some of the GNU
> > > tools (tar,awk, ...) install Cygwin, or dual boot.
> >
> > Hans:
> > Right on !
> > Linux should not be a cult, but I think it is by now .....
> >
> > > My testimonial: I got my laptop in Jan,1999 (an ARM TS759. ARM is
> > > very linux friendly and even offers preinstalled RedHat. I
> > > specifically asked about Linux before buying). My NIC (a generic
> > > 10baseT) was supported off the bat. It took about 6 mos for the
> > > soundcard driver to make it into the stable kernel. I would still use
> > > Windows regularly. Eventually my windows use was only for games and
> > > all my work was done in Linux. Finally I got bored of the games. The
> > > last time I booted into windows was 6 mos ago, and last week I got rid
> > > of the last fat partition on my disk.
> >
> > Hans:
> > Mine: I got an all Linux compatible hardware set, because I checked all
> > components before. Got Debian 2.2.18pre21 and the result: I can't print
> > on a HP2100 (mentioned to be "perfect" for Linux), I can't tar to a DI-30
> > tapestreamer (proudly declared: "Linux certified" by the manufacturer),
> > I'm doubtful if my network will work and it will probable take another
> > year before I get my ADSL modem working. I will install W2000 in the days
> > to come and if everything works: "bye bye Linux".
>
> The docs are there to do all that you need, if you're not willing to invest
> some time researching, then you are in the wrong field.
I'm not talking about "some time", I'm talking about a lot of precious
time taken from my research project which is what it is needed for.
So precious that I don't dare to think of its equivalent in dollars.
>
> > > Craig Milling
> > >
> > > PS. If you made it down this far, thanks for reading my rambling
> > > missive.
> > >
> > > :)
> >
> > Hans:
> > As you can see, I made it.
> >
> > > ____________________
> > > Dr. Craig T. Milling
> > > c-milli@uiuc.edu
> > > Dept. of Physics, Univ. of Illinois
> > > Phone: 217/333-1930
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> >
> >
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