Bug#606482: marked as done (2.6.32-5-amd64: no headphone output on ASUS M4A785T-D motherboard)

To: Sergio Gelato <Sergio.Gelato@astro.su.se>
Subject: Bug#606482: marked as done (2.6.32-5-amd64: no headphone output on ASUS M4A785T-D motherboard)
From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 18:51:06 +0000
Message-id: <[🔎] handler.606482.D606482.133019574832436.ackdone@bugs.debian.org>
References: <20120225184904.GA11464@hanuman.astro.su.se> <20101209161410.GB2132@astro.su.se>

Your message dated Sat, 25 Feb 2012 19:49:04 +0100
with message-id <20120225184904.GA11464@hanuman.astro.su.se>
and subject line Issue #606482 resolved
has caused the Debian Bug report #606482,
regarding 2.6.32-5-amd64: no headphone output on ASUS M4A785T-D motherboard
to be marked as done.

This means that you claim that the problem has been dealt with.
If this is not the case it is now your responsibility to reopen the
Bug report if necessary, and/or fix the problem forthwith.

(NB: If you are a system administrator and have no idea what this
message is talking about, this may indicate a serious mail system
misconfiguration somewhere. Please contact owner@bugs.debian.org
immediately.)


-- 
606482: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=606482
Debian Bug Tracking System
Contact owner@bugs.debian.org with problems

--- Begin Message ---

To: submit@bugs.debian.org
Subject: 2.6.32-5-amd64: no headphone output on ASUS M4A785T-D motherboard
From: Sergio Gelato <Sergio.Gelato@astro.su.se>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 17:14:10 +0100
Message-id: <20101209161410.GB2132@astro.su.se>

Package: linux-image-2.6.32-5-amd64
Version: 2.6.32-28
Severity: normal

On this hardware:

00:14.2 Audio device [0403]: ATI Technologies Inc SBx00 Azalia (Intel HDA) [1002:4383]
        Subsystem: ASUSTeK Computer Inc. M4A785TD Motherboard [1043:836c]
        Kernel driver in use: HDA Intel
01:05.1 Audio device [0403]: ATI Technologies Inc RS880 Audio Device [Radeon HD 4200] [1002:970f]
        Subsystem: ASUSTeK Computer Inc. M4A785TD Motherboard [1043:83a2]
        Kernel driver in use: HDA Intel

I get no sound through the headphone output when using the above named kernel.
I do get sound through the rear speaker output.

Using the kernel in Ubuntu 10.04 (2.6.32-26-generic version 2.6.32-26.48)
on the same hardware I do get sound through the headphone output.

Looking at the kernel source code, I see that Debian's kernel includes
many patches backported from newer kernels (there are 19 patches in
debian/patches/features/all/hda-via/).

Codec information collected by alsa-info:

Codec: VIA VT1708S
Address: 0
Function Id: 0x1
Vendor Id: 0x11060397
Subsystem Id: 0x1043836c
Revision Id: 0x100000
No Modem Function Group found
Default PCM:
    rates [0x0]:
    bits [0x0]:
    formats [0x0]:
efault Amp-In caps: N/A
Default Amp-Out caps: N/A
GPIO: io=1, o=0, i=0, unsolicited=1, wake=0
  IO[0]: enable=0, dir=0, wake=0, sticky=0, data=0, unsol=0
Node 0x10 [Audio Output] wcaps 0x41d: Stereo Amp-Out
  Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x2a, nsteps=0x2a, stepsize=0x05, mute=0
  Amp-Out vals:  [0x2a 0x2a]
  Converter: stream=0, channel=0
  PCM:
    rates [0x5e0]: 44100 48000 88200 96000 192000
    bits [0xe]: 16 20 24
    formats [0x1]: PCM
  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
Node 0x11 [Audio Output] wcaps 0x41d: Stereo Amp-Out
  Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x2a, nsteps=0x2a, stepsize=0x05, mute=0
  Amp-Out vals:  [0x2a 0x2a]
  Converter: stream=0, channel=0
  PCM:
    rates [0x5e0]: 44100 48000 88200 96000 192000
    bits [0xe]: 16 20 24
    formats [0x1]: PCM
  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
Node 0x12 [Audio Output] wcaps 0x611: Stereo Digital
  Converter: stream=0, channel=0
  Digital:
  Digital category: 0x0
  PCM:
    rates [0x5e0]: 44100 48000 88200 96000 192000
    bits [0xe]: 16 20 24
    formats [0x1]: PCM
  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Node 0x13 [Audio Input] wcaps 0x10051b: Stereo Amp-In
  Amp-In caps: ofs=0x0b, nsteps=0x1f, stepsize=0x05, mute=1
  Amp-In vals:  [0x00 0x00]
  Converter: stream=0, channel=0
  SDI-Select: 0
  PCM:
    rates [0x560]: 44100 48000 96000 192000
    bits [0xe]: 16 20 24
    formats [0x1]: PCM
  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
  Connection: 1
     0x17
Node 0x14 [Audio Input] wcaps 0x10051b: Stereo Amp-In
  Amp-In caps: ofs=0x0b, nsteps=0x1f, stepsize=0x05, mute=1
  Amp-In vals:  [0x00 0x00]
  Converter: stream=0, channel=0
  SDI-Select: 0
  PCM:
    rates [0x560]: 44100 48000 96000 192000
    bits [0xe]: 16 20 24
    formats [0x1]: PCM
  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
  Connection: 1
     0x1e
Node 0x15 [Audio Output] wcaps 0x611: Stereo Digital
  Converter: stream=0, channel=0
  Digital:
  Digital category: 0x0
  PCM:
    rates [0x5e0]: 44100 48000 88200 96000 192000
    bits [0xe]: 16 20 24
    formats [0x1]: PCM
  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Node 0x16 [Audio Mixer] wcaps 0x20050b: Stereo Amp-In
  Amp-In caps: ofs=0x17, nsteps=0x1f, stepsize=0x05, mute=1
  Amp-In vals:  [0x1f 0x1f] [0x00 0x00] [0x00 0x00] [0x00 0x00] [0x00 0x00] [0x97 0x97] [0x97 0x97]
  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
  Connection: 7
     0x10 0x1f 0x1a 0x1b 0x1e 0x1d 0x25
Node 0x17 [Audio Selector] wcaps 0x300501: Stereo
  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
  Connection: 6
     0x1f 0x1a* 0x1b 0x1e 0x1d 0x16
Node 0x18 [Audio Selector] wcaps 0x30050d: Stereo Amp-Out
  Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x00, nsteps=0x00, stepsize=0x00, mute=1
  Amp-Out vals:  [0x00 0x00]
  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
  Connection: 1
     0x11
Node 0x19 [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400581: Stereo
  Pincap 0x00000014: OUT Detect
  Pin Default 0x01011012: [Jack] Line Out at Ext Rear
    Conn = 1/8, Color = Black
    DefAssociation = 0x1, Sequence = 0x2
  Pin-ctls: 0x40: OUT
  Unsolicited: tag=04, enabled=1
  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
  Connection: 1
     0x18
Node 0x1a [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400581: Stereo
  Pincap 0x00002334: IN OUT Detect
    Vref caps: HIZ 50 100
  Pin Default 0x01a19036: [Jack] Mic at Ext Rear
    Conn = 1/8, Color = Pink
    DefAssociation = 0x3, Sequence = 0x6
  Pin-ctls: 0x21: IN VREF_50
  Unsolicited: tag=04, enabled=1
  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
  Connection: 1
     0x26
Node 0x1b [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400581: Stereo
  Pincap 0x00002334: IN OUT Detect
    Vref caps: HIZ 50 100
  Pin Default 0x0181303e: [Jack] Line In at Ext Rear
    Conn = 1/8, Color = Blue
    DefAssociation = 0x3, Sequence = 0xe
  Pin-ctls: 0x20: IN VREF_HIZ
  Unsolicited: tag=04, enabled=1
  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
  Connection: 1
     0x18
Node 0x1c [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x40058d: Stereo Amp-Out
  Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x00, nsteps=0x00, stepsize=0x00, mute=1
  Amp-Out vals:  [0x00 0x00]
  Pincap 0x0001001c: OUT HP EAPD Detect
  EAPD 0x2: EAPD
  Pin Default 0x01014010: [Jack] Line Out at Ext Rear
    Conn = 1/8, Color = Green
    DefAssociation = 0x1, Sequence = 0x0
  Pin-ctls: 0x40: OUT
  Unsolicited: tag=04, enabled=1
  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
  Connection: 1
     0x16
Node 0x1d [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x40058d: Stereo Amp-Out
  Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x00, nsteps=0x00, stepsize=0x00, mute=1
  Amp-Out vals:  [0x00 0x00]
  Pincap 0x0000233c: IN OUT HP Detect
    Vref caps: HIZ 50 100
  Pin Default 0x0221401f: [Jack] HP Out at Ext Front
    Conn = 1/8, Color = Green
    DefAssociation = 0x1, Sequence = 0xf
  Pin-ctls: 0xc0: OUT HP VREF_HIZ
  Unsolicited: tag=05, enabled=1
  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
  Connection: 2
     0x16* 0x25
Node 0x1e [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x40058d: Stereo Amp-Out
  Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x00, nsteps=0x00, stepsize=0x00, mute=1
  Amp-Out vals:  [0x00 0x00]
  Pincap 0x0000233c: IN OUT HP Detect
    Vref caps: HIZ 50 100
  Pin Default 0x02a19038: [Jack] Mic at Ext Front
    Conn = 1/8, Color = Pink
    DefAssociation = 0x3, Sequence = 0x8
  Pin-ctls: 0x21: IN VREF_50
  Unsolicited: tag=04, enabled=1
  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
  Connection: 2
     0x16 0x25*
Node 0x1f [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400401: Stereo
  Pincap 0x00000020: IN
  Pin Default 0x503701f7: [N/A] CD at Int N/A
    Conn = Analog, Color = Unknown
    DefAssociation = 0xf, Sequence = 0x7
    Misc = NO_PRESENCE
  Pin-ctls: 0x00:
  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Node 0x20 [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400701: Stereo Digital
  Pincap 0x00000010: OUT
  Pin Default 0x074311f0: [Jack] SPDIF Out at Ext Rear Panel
    Conn = ATAPI, Color = Black
    DefAssociation = 0xf, Sequence = 0x0
    Misc = NO_PRESENCE
  Pin-ctls: 0x40: OUT
  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
  Connection: 1
     0x12
Node 0x21 [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400701: Stereo Digital
  Pincap 0x00000010: OUT
  Pin Default 0x074521f0: [Jack] SPDIF Out at Ext Rear Panel
    Conn = Optical, Color = Grey
    DefAssociation = 0xf, Sequence = 0x0
    Misc = NO_PRESENCE
  Pin-ctls: 0x40: OUT
  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
  Connection: 1
     0x15
Node 0x22 [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400581: Stereo
  Pincap 0x00000014: OUT Detect
  Pin Default 0x01016011: [Jack] Line Out at Ext Rear
    Conn = 1/8, Color = Orange
    DefAssociation = 0x1, Sequence = 0x1
  Pin-ctls: 0x40: OUT
  Unsolicited: tag=04, enabled=1
  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
  Connection: 1
     0x26
Node 0x23 [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400581: Stereo
  Pincap 0x00000014: OUT Detect
  Pin Default 0x01012014: [Jack] Line Out at Ext Rear
    Conn = 1/8, Color = Grey
    DefAssociation = 0x1, Sequence = 0x4
  Pin-ctls: 0x40: OUT
  Unsolicited: tag=04, enabled=1
  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
  Connection: 1
     0x27
Node 0x24 [Audio Output] wcaps 0x41d: Stereo Amp-Out
  Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x2a, nsteps=0x2a, stepsize=0x05, mute=0
  Amp-Out vals:  [0x2a 0x2a]
  Converter: stream=0, channel=0
  PCM:
    rates [0x5e0]: 44100 48000 88200 96000 192000
    bits [0xe]: 16 20 24
    formats [0x1]: PCM
  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
Node 0x25 [Audio Output] wcaps 0x41d: Stereo Amp-Out
  Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x2a, nsteps=0x2a, stepsize=0x05, mute=0
  Amp-Out vals:  [0x2a 0x2a]
  Converter: stream=0, channel=0
  PCM:
    rates [0x5e0]: 44100 48000 88200 96000 192000
    bits [0xe]: 16 20 24
    formats [0x1]: PCM
  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
Node 0x26 [Audio Selector] wcaps 0x30050d: Stereo Amp-Out
  Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x00, nsteps=0x00, stepsize=0x00, mute=1
  Amp-Out vals:  [0x00 0x00]
  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
  Connection: 1
     0x24
Node 0x27 [Audio Selector] wcaps 0x30050d: Stereo Amp-Out
  Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x00, nsteps=0x00, stepsize=0x00, mute=1
  Amp-Out vals:  [0x00 0x00]
  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
  Connection: 1
     0x25
Codec: ATI RS690/780 HDMI
Address: 0
Function Id: 0x1
Vendor Id: 0x1002791a
Subsystem Id: 0x00791a00
Revision Id: 0x100000
No Modem Function Group found
Default PCM:
    rates [0x40]: 48000
    bits [0x2]: 16
    formats [0x1]: PCM
Default Amp-In caps: N/A
Default Amp-Out caps: N/A
GPIO: io=0, o=0, i=0, unsolicited=0, wake=0
Node 0x02 [Audio Output] wcaps 0x201: Stereo Digital
  Converter: stream=0, channel=0
  Digital:
  Digital category: 0x0
Node 0x03 [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400381: Stereo Digital
  Pincap 0x00000094: OUT Detect HDMI
  Pin Default 0x18560010: [Jack] Digital Out at Int HDMI
    Conn = Digital, Color = Unknown
    DefAssociation = 0x1, Sequence = 0x0
Default PCM:
    rates [0x40]: 48000
    bits [0x2]: 16
    formats [0x1]: PCM
Default Amp-In caps: N/A
Default Amp-Out caps: N/A
GPIO: io=0, o=0, i=0, unsolicited=0, wake=0
Node 0x02 [Audio Output] wcaps 0x201: Stereo Digital
  Converter: stream=0, channel=0
  Digital:
  Digital category: 0x0
Node 0x03 [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400381: Stereo Digital
  Pincap 0x00000094: OUT Detect HDMI
  Pin Default 0x18560010: [Jack] Digital Out at Int HDMI
    Conn = Digital, Color = Unknown
    DefAssociation = 0x1, Sequence = 0x0
  Pin-ctls: 0x40: OUT
  Unsolicited: tag=00, enabled=0
  Connection: 1
     0x02

The corresponding data from Ubuntu lucid are very similar. Here is the full
diff (-lucid +squeeze):

@@ -164,7 +149,7 @@
     rates [0x5e0]: 44100 48000 88200 96000 192000
     bits [0xe]: 16 20 24
     formats [0x1]: PCM
-  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
+  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
 Node 0x11 [Audio Output] wcaps 0x41d: Stereo Amp-Out
   Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x2a, nsteps=0x2a, stepsize=0x05, mute=0
   Amp-Out vals:  [0x2a 0x2a]
@@ -173,7 +158,7 @@
     rates [0x5e0]: 44100 48000 88200 96000 192000
     bits [0xe]: 16 20 24
     formats [0x1]: PCM
-  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
+  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
 Node 0x12 [Audio Output] wcaps 0x611: Stereo Digital
   Converter: stream=0, channel=0
   Digital:
@@ -218,8 +203,8 @@
   Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
 Node 0x16 [Audio Mixer] wcaps 0x20050b: Stereo Amp-In
   Amp-In caps: ofs=0x17, nsteps=0x1f, stepsize=0x05, mute=1
-  Amp-In vals:  [0x0b 0x0b] [0x00 0x00] [0x80 0x80] [0x00 0x00] [0x00 0x00] [0x97 0x97] [0x97 0x97]
-  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
+  Amp-In vals:  [0x1f 0x1f] [0x00 0x00] [0x00 0x00] [0x00 0x00] [0x00 0x00] [0x97 0x97] [0x97 0x97]
+  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
   Connection: 7
      0x10 0x1f 0x1a 0x1b 0x1e 0x1d 0x25
 Node 0x17 [Audio Selector] wcaps 0x300501: Stereo
@@ -229,7 +214,7 @@
 Node 0x18 [Audio Selector] wcaps 0x30050d: Stereo Amp-Out
   Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x00, nsteps=0x00, stepsize=0x00, mute=1
   Amp-Out vals:  [0x00 0x00]
-  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
+  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
   Connection: 1
      0x11
 Node 0x19 [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400581: Stereo
@@ -238,8 +223,8 @@
     Conn = 1/8, Color = Black
     DefAssociation = 0x1, Sequence = 0x2
   Pin-ctls: 0x40: OUT
-  Unsolicited: tag=00, enabled=0
-  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
+  Unsolicited: tag=04, enabled=1
+  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
   Connection: 1
      0x18
 Node 0x1a [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400581: Stereo
@@ -249,8 +234,8 @@
     Conn = 1/8, Color = Pink
     DefAssociation = 0x3, Sequence = 0x6
   Pin-ctls: 0x21: IN VREF_50
-  Unsolicited: tag=00, enabled=0
-  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
+  Unsolicited: tag=04, enabled=1
+  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
   Connection: 1
      0x26
 Node 0x1b [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400581: Stereo
@@ -260,7 +245,7 @@
     Conn = 1/8, Color = Blue
     DefAssociation = 0x3, Sequence = 0xe
   Pin-ctls: 0x20: IN VREF_HIZ
-  Unsolicited: tag=00, enabled=0
+  Unsolicited: tag=04, enabled=1
   Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
   Connection: 1
      0x18
@@ -273,8 +258,8 @@
     Conn = 1/8, Color = Green
     DefAssociation = 0x1, Sequence = 0x0
   Pin-ctls: 0x40: OUT
-  Unsolicited: tag=00, enabled=0
-  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
+  Unsolicited: tag=04, enabled=1
+  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
   Connection: 1
      0x16
 Node 0x1d [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x40058d: Stereo Amp-Out
@@ -286,8 +271,8 @@
     Conn = 1/8, Color = Green
     DefAssociation = 0x1, Sequence = 0xf
   Pin-ctls: 0xc0: OUT HP VREF_HIZ
-  Unsolicited: tag=01, enabled=1
-  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
+  Unsolicited: tag=05, enabled=1
+  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
   Connection: 2
      0x16* 0x25
 Node 0x1e [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x40058d: Stereo Amp-Out
@@ -299,10 +284,10 @@
     Conn = 1/8, Color = Pink
     DefAssociation = 0x3, Sequence = 0x8
   Pin-ctls: 0x21: IN VREF_50
-  Unsolicited: tag=00, enabled=0
-  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
+  Unsolicited: tag=04, enabled=1
+  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
   Connection: 2
-     0x16* 0x25
+     0x16 0x25*
 Node 0x1f [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400401: Stereo
   Pincap 0x00000020: IN
   Pin Default 0x503701f7: [N/A] CD at Int N/A
@@ -337,8 +322,8 @@
     Conn = 1/8, Color = Orange
     DefAssociation = 0x1, Sequence = 0x1
   Pin-ctls: 0x40: OUT
-  Unsolicited: tag=00, enabled=0
-  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
+  Unsolicited: tag=04, enabled=1
+  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
   Connection: 1
      0x26
 Node 0x23 [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400581: Stereo
@@ -347,8 +332,8 @@
     Conn = 1/8, Color = Grey
     DefAssociation = 0x1, Sequence = 0x4
   Pin-ctls: 0x40: OUT
-  Unsolicited: tag=00, enabled=0
-  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
+  Unsolicited: tag=04, enabled=1
+  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
   Connection: 1
      0x27
 Node 0x24 [Audio Output] wcaps 0x41d: Stereo Amp-Out
@@ -359,7 +344,7 @@
     rates [0x5e0]: 44100 48000 88200 96000 192000
     bits [0xe]: 16 20 24
     formats [0x1]: PCM
-  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
+  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
 Node 0x25 [Audio Output] wcaps 0x41d: Stereo Amp-Out
   Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x2a, nsteps=0x2a, stepsize=0x05, mute=0
   Amp-Out vals:  [0x2a 0x2a]
@@ -368,17 +353,17 @@
     rates [0x5e0]: 44100 48000 88200 96000 192000
     bits [0xe]: 16 20 24
     formats [0x1]: PCM
-  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
+  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
 Node 0x26 [Audio Selector] wcaps 0x30050d: Stereo Amp-Out
   Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x00, nsteps=0x00, stepsize=0x00, mute=1
   Amp-Out vals:  [0x00 0x00]
-  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
+  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
   Connection: 1
      0x24
 Node 0x27 [Audio Selector] wcaps 0x30050d: Stereo Amp-Out
   Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x00, nsteps=0x00, stepsize=0x00, mute=1
   Amp-Out vals:  [0x00 0x00]
-  Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
+  Power: setting=D3, actual=D3
   Connection: 1
      0x25
 Codec: ATI RS690/780 HDMI

(I didn't plug anything into the pink microphone inputs 0x1a and 0x1e.)

The user-level software behaves as if everything was normal; it's just that
no signal is coming out of that front output (0x1d) no matter what I try.

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

To: 606482-done@bugs.debian.org

Subject: Issue #606482 resolved

From: Sergio Gelato <Sergio.Gelato@astro.su.se>

Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 19:49:04 +0100

Message-id: <20120225184904.GA11464@hanuman.astro.su.se>
The problem turned out to be due to an inappropriate BIOS configuration
setting. The "Front Panel Select" setting needed (for my specific case)
to be set to "AC97" instead of "HD Audio". Found thanks to some comments in
https://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/alsa-bug/view.php?id=5309
(especially note 23449).

No kernel changes needed. Closing my own bug.
--- End Message ---

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Follow-Ups:
- Bug#606482: no headphone output on ASUS M4A785T-D motherboard
  - From: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>

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