Re: Hurd Advocacy?
Hurd Advocate wrote:
What can the Hurd community do to promote their favorite OS?
It seems like the Hurd doesn't really have a critical mass of
users to spur the growth we'd all like to see. So I was wondering what
everyone thought was the best way to attract more developers/users to
the Hurd. The reason I initially looked into the hurd is the BitKeeper
fiasco. I found it unpalatable for free software to be beholden to a
proprietary master. I thought it would't hurt to look at the
alternatives. And I came across the Hurd. From what I could initially
find out, it seemed like it had interesting and modern architecture,
one
which could solve the "Linus doesn't scale" problem more cleanly than
the BitKeeper solution. (And here I'm assuming that things like
userspace device drivers and the fact that any part of the system can
theoretically be replaced on the fly really does solve that problem).
I
was, of course, also attracted just because it was something new and
different. So I wonder what attracts everyone else to the Hurd. To
that end here are a couple of questions I have.
- Is there any killer-app for the Hurd (available now or in the future)
that we think will bring the masses in? Or phrased a different way,
is there any one feature that people would be willing to think about
converting over for.
translators?
distributed OS?
better security model?
more customizable? (is that a word?)
No killer app as such, people just want to be able to use the hardware
that comes with their machine, and mostly perform everyday tasks.
You're more likely to work on something you can use, and without
printing, sound, CD/DVD-RW support and a browser/mail/office suite,
HURD's only going to appeal to a very limited subset of people.
- Are hardware compatibility problems more of a problem for newbies, or
is it the lack of software which stifles adoption. (And for the
record, I think the killer-app would be Linux and the Hurd running
side by side on top of the same micro-kernel. That would make
migration easier, since you could still have access to your important
hardware and software that hadn't been ported over yet)
A mixture of the two (see above for my points on software) but hardware
compatibility issues will always be a problem with a fledgeling O/S that
doesn't have hardware manufacturer support. All you can do is try to
write some kind of hardware/software interaction layer that would make
driver writing as easy as possible. And most importantly, document it.
- Is it hard to attract developers because the project is too complex.
Instead of just learning one system, you have to learn about two: the
hurd and mach. And who would want to learn about mach when it's
scheduled for removal whenever the L4 kernel gets traction (3-5 years
out?)? Or is it the "multi- threaded servers are hard to debug"
problem still.
If the decision has been made to go to L4, IMHO work should have halted
on Mach. Forgive my ignorance, but why is L4 3-5 years away? If the
decision has been made to move to a kernel structure that doesn't exist
yet, that strikes me as an *interesting* decision.
- Is a lack of documentation the real hard thing for new developers to
overcome?
It's one of many challenges for the newcomer, yes.
- Are we nice enough to newbs? (I tend to think so, but there was a
little hissy-fit about change-log colon-placement for hello.c on
bug-hurd last month)
Speaking as one, I think so :) see below for my only other comments on
that...
- Do we suffer from a lack of charasmatic leadership and direction?
I've occasionally noticed posts on this list that could have been
phrased more politely, a little more encouragement for newbies/casual
contributors would probably help them become regular contributors.
- Is there any one thing which could be fixed to attact a lot more
users?
PPP?
sound?
USB?
GNOME?
journaled file system?
OpenOffice?
I think the following things are essential for people to want to get
involved:
X-Windows & some kind of Window Manager (fluxbox or whatever)
Networking - a browser and mail program (it's essential to have the
ability to send/recieve e-mail and browse the web)
Printing - CUPS or whatever, anything so long as it works. I appreciate
that this really needs USB working for most modern printers
Stability - What people really want, is for the very basic
infrastructure to be solid and reliable. If it falls over twice a day,
people are going to get frustrated very quickly. It's the old chicken
and egg thing, if no-one is using it then no bugs will get reported, but
no-one wants to use something that is percieved as unstable.
Sound would be a nicety rather than an essential, as someone else
responded 'it's better to hack with sounds'
- Is advertising our problem? Do we not get enough exposure to
potential developers? (And here I'm thinking CS undergrads) I'm
thinking that a new developer could have a lot more influence on the
design of the Hurd (since it's still in flux) than say a more mature
project like Linux or FreeBSD.
I only ever found out about HURD because of a two page article in Linux
Format, I hadn't heard of it before that, and outside of here I haven't
heard it since.
- Does anyone think that companies like RedHat or IBM might think about
funding some summer college internships to work on something like the
Hurd?
I suspect not, the companies mentioned have put an awful lot of
marketing and R&D spend into Linux, and even then IBM only really bought
in when Linux had gotten stable on its own. This is a shame, but most
large organisations aren't particularly philanthropic.
- Is there any future development that might drive people to the Hurd?
Like the SCO garbage or DRM binaries/signatures in the Linux kernel?
I can't tell, but having no commercial pressures really is a blessing
that shouldn't be underestimated.
- Is our installation proceedure/Debian system overly obtuse?
Tried it, failed, have been waiting for CD images to re-appear and an
empty weekend before I try again. See, I'm such a newbie I haven't even
got HURD running yet! And I've been reading this list for months...
- Are we always destined to play catch up with Linux? (eventhough we
had
a headstart?)
No, just until we have the fundamentals of filesystem, hardware support,
stability sorted out, then we should be able to build quickly and take
account of what's already happened with Linux to influence how we
approach problems. We could easily come out ahead.
Anyways, I'd like to hear your thoughts.
The Hurd Advocate
This is just a view from someone who currently considers themselves
'outside' of the project but looks in regularly. I really want the HURD
to succeed, I hope this feedback doesn't come across as negative, and I
look forward to reporting successful HURD installation any weekend soon. :)
Mark
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