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Re: where do NEW packages go?

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Jeroen Dekkers wrote:

> Joined the cabal, you mean? You probably see it different because you
> are part of some groups, but this is how I see it. You still didn't
> manage to show it's different. It would be nice if reality was different...

When I became part of owner@bugs, it was different than most groups in Debian.
Darren Benham had made debbugs the software into a deb, and was converting
master over to it.  He asked for volunteers to be on owner@bugs, and I
responded.  I believe Josip and Anthony came on later, but I am not certain of
the circumstances.

For dpkg, I started going thru the bugs filed against it, and sending patches.
I did this at a high rate, until Wichert gave me cvs write access.

It wasn't until much later that I started actually adding new features to
these 2 software packages, and doing major fixes(no need to list them, they
don't matter for this discussion).

All I am suggesting is that you do the same.  Fix current issues, even if they
are not something that interests you currently.  Keep fixing problems.  Do it
without complaining.  This will earn you the trust that you desire.

> > The software these groups use is all available for everyone to see, so others
> > can figure out how it works, if they are willing.  However, what generally
> > happens is that some outside group sees something not occuring to their
> > liking, and then the following happens:
> >
> > s = statement, a = answer
> >
> > s: foo is broken, let's fix it.
> >  a: no it's not, it works fine.
> > s: yes it is
> >  a: <no answer, silence>
> > time passes
> > s: I can help, how do I help?
> >  a: <silence>  -- this happens because those doing the work are too busy to
> >     spoon feed everyone, and some have been burned in the past doing just
> >     this.
> >  a: Look <here>, <there>, and <the other place>, and learn how it works.
> > s: <suddnely no more offers of help>
> Read the mail from Marcus to Manoj how it really goes. I know about 3
> cases that it happened like Marcus described: arch handling, bts arch
> tags and apt-i18n. I guess there are more where I don't know about.

All these tools are complex, and used by all of Debian.  They are very
critical to the function of this organization.  Modifying them needs to be
done carefully, with lots of testing.

I am invovled with dpkg and a little with apt(the arch handling), the bts arch
tags(also, by extension, version tags), and a little with apt(for apt-il8n).

I've seen all these discussions.  They have generally been "Here's a patch for
this new feature, add it, now."  They(those who have made patches, or started
discussions) have not followed the above procedures.  So, when they do speak
up, they are summarily ignored.

> Is this your only argument? So we have to stop developping because
> some other part is in a freeze for a few months? This is ridiculous.

No, you don't have to stop developing.  I never said that, nor implied it.
You just can't expect others to be concerned with your personal ideas about
the universe right now.

> > No, you don't change the whole to make the part fit it.  You change the part
> > to fit in with the whole.
> >
> > Someone here has backwards thinking.
> Someone thinks adding an OS in Debian is the same as adding the 25th editor.

There is no comparison.  You making the above stmt says enough about your
thinking process.

> You claim it's at a worse time. I say that this is already going on
> for 3 years.

It hasn't been.

> No. At least when I came to the Hurd, they treated me as their
> equal. As someone who could improve their software. From the first
> day, they treated me with respect. Even when I have a totally
> different opinion or say something really stupid, they still get
> respect.
> A few months ago somebody mailed to debian-hurd with a problem with
> windows. He was treated with respect and somebody pointed him to the
> microsoft website and somebody else said something humorous. We, Hurd
> developers, who think non-free software is immoral, even treated
> somebody who wrote to the wrong mailinglist about a problem using
> non-free software with respect.
> When I came to Debian, I wanted to fix the problems of the Hurd
> port. I subscribed to debian-devel, lurked for a while and then gave
> my opinion about some subjects. I immediately got flamed about
> that. And then everytime I wanted to start a discussion about
> something, I got treated like a fool, because I'm having a different
> opinion. And I still am treated like that.
> Do you see the difference between the Hurd community and the Debian
> community?

Debian is bigger than hurd.  What happens in one small little sector has
different procedures than the entire galaxy.

> > This is all common sense, which it appears that you are severly lacking.
> If you continue with personal attacks, I'll start with it too.

I wasn't the one who started.

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