Re: New DFSG-compliant emacs packages
Le vendredi 27 octobre 2006 10:22, vous avez écrit :
> > Not everyone use Emacs for LaTex editing
>
> But quite a few users do, and also new users (the respective mailing
> lists have hundreds of readers). But I find that somewhat beside the
> point unless you don't actually care for the package being used. Are
> you trying to argue that it is ok to select Emacs users as collateral
> targets for lashing out at the FSF, because there are not too many of
> them and you are willing to expend them?
What the FSF has to do with it? You are obviously biaised. There is
no exception for FSF products whatsoever. I think Debian is fairly
objective in this respect.
...
> > There are many old time Emacs users who happen to be Debian users as
> > well.
>
> Well, we get quite a lot of feedback on the AUCTeX mailing lists from
> many new users, too.
>
> >> > And I bet you can use Emacs for everyday's tasks without it's
> >> > user guide.
> >>
> >> Without knowing how to configure it? Hardly.
> >
> > I mean *you* old time Emacs user, of course.
>
> The Debian package documentation of Emacs does not declare it
> deprecated software not to be used by newcomers. If you want to see
> it treated as such, truth in advertising would demand that you adapt
> the package documentation. It would be unfair not to inform potential
> users that Debian will not deliver a package intentionally unsuitable
> for beginners.
It is not unsuitable for beginners. We always make efforts to
warn users about why the outcome of some keybindings is not
what they are expecting: we do display informative messages
when some keybindings point to missing documentation, explaining
why it is not free and where they can find it.
It is not like they are completely lost and it is a good tradeoff
toward Debian guidelines.
...
> > C-h K C-t does not lead to the manual, it leads to doc strings.
>
> If you don't have a clue, try it out. C-h k C-t leads to the doc
> string, C-h K C-t leads to the manual.
Try it with emacs21, it does not. This is the only version we ship.
> > FYI, C-h keybindings still work after moving manuals to non-free.
> > Don't we have a misunderstanding?
>
> No, just somebody who does not know his way around Emacs and yet wants
> to decide which Debian users should be allowed to use it.
So you end up with insulting as usual. Why do you always have to
come to this?
If it is about C-h K, I know what I'm doing and you are wrong.
But you're right in a way, I'm not an Emacs power user and I can get
along without it for everydays tasks. But it has never prevented me
from supporting users, patching it when necessary. The changelog
does not lie.
> > Please tell me about commands that lead to the manual, not doc
> > strings.
>
> I did. C-h K for one thing. In the spirit of this thread, my input
> gets ignored. There is also C-h F, C-h r, C-h S, naturally C-h i
> (with the convenient index search command i), Help/Search
> Documentation/Emacs Terminology, Help/Search Documentation/Lookup
> Subject in User Manual, Help/Search Documentation/Lookup Subject in
> ELisp Manual, Help/More Manuals/Lookup Subject in all Manuals.
Again, try C-h K with emacs21.
> > apt-listchanges is quite popular, you know. Don't underestimate
> > users.
>
> You mean, making an example of Emacs users is ok because you think the
> experienced ones might be able to work around the attack?
Attack?
> Last time I looked, the Debian policies were supposed to be good for
> its users, not a weapon against them.
Well, I'm sorry? Debian is still about providing a 100% free software
operating system and its policies hasn't changed so far.
--
Jérôme Marant
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