On Thursday 13 November 2014 12:37 PM, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote: > I like the idea but we so far haven't even done that much. My point is > that legal status in one shape or another has to happen sooner rather than > later. Because until then, Debian-IN doesn't exist. It is nothing more > than a figment of the imagination. We have been conducting events over many years using the infrastructure the host institution provides (mainly a bank account). > This is suboptimal. Guests are being invited in the name of Debian-IN > so Debian-IN should be the responsible party. Also if my suggestion of > broadening the audience is taken up will there even necessarily be a > "host institution."? My apprehension is having to maintain so many institutions just for a letter or a bank account. I know so many such organizations which have a legal presence but is not sustainable. For me a sustainable community is more important. As I stated earlier, I'm not opposed to it if someone wants to do it. This has to be strictly separated from the community much like SPI and Debian works. I don't want to accept any authority to meddle with community affairs. > Yeah I know. I'm not blaming anyone for an honest mistake. But this is > another reason for more organization; maintaining "institutional memory" > so that when future events are held with different organizers the same > mistakes don't get repeated. We already have created a checklist https://wiki.debian.org/DebianIndia/MiniDebConfDebUtsavChecklist and I think a wiki is more than sufficient for this purpose. > And if you can't for whatever reason? Or they take their sweet time > about it? Something to think about. Well, we depend them for so many things for the event. > I think "my vision" as you call it more accurately describes the vision > of the Debian project as a whole than yours does. Do you truthfully > think otherwise? When you took yours to debian-project you didn't get > any takers nor did I see any of the Indian DDs agree with you over here. yes, I believe I'm taking debian to new people and I'm bringing more contributors to debian. I was not stopped in debian-project or by other DDs, that's all I need to go ahead. May be you are not clear about how debian works. Everyone has authority to choose what and how they contribute as long as they don't go beyond the limits set by the project. When someone feels limits are broken, there are ways defined by the project to resolve it, like CTTE, CoC, GR etc. Other than what is defined by the project, no DD or group of DDs have any authority over what other DDs do. I don't see Debian recognize something like Indian DDs as a decision making authority. > You see what I still don't understand is that, given your views, why you > need or want the string "deb" in the kind of events you want to organize > at all? It could just as easily be called fedutsav, frozenbubblotsav or > praveenutsav without any difference. People have been organizing debian booths in Free Software and debconfs. Two extremes, one where Debian is just another project and other debian the main project. I don't understand why people are so much against this concept of debian community organizing a Free Software event? Fedora already do it, fudcon or fedutsav could mean an important role for fedora. debutsav is a Free Software festival organized by debian community. > But thats just it. It doesn't give prominence to Debian. Debian > becomes just "another Free Software project." And it isn't. Documents When debian is represented as booths in other Free Software events, its like that only. > such as the constitution, DFSG, and social contract give it a very > specific outlook on Free Software. While broadly aligned with other > organizations that also do Free Software or Open Source, Debian doesn't > hesitate to disagree with them when they do not comport to our notions. > (E.g. FSF and the GFDL issue. Ruby packaging etc.) It's a good thing I > don't do NM application manager work because I would fail any applicant > who couldn't readily articulate the differences between Debian's > philosophy and other FOSS groups. We have debconfs and mini debconfs for that (I conceded that already). But why insist only that has to be there? > Look, I'm 10 timezones away. I am not in the position to stop anyone. > What I am doing is asking you and everyone if what is being done is > truly in the best interests of the Debian project. Its surprising to hear someone with as much experience in debian as you to discount the influence of mailing lists and mails. >> Why are you so persistent at discouraging people contributing? > > Are you actually contributing to Debian? I think so. I hope so but we > don't actually know because so far we have no data on the aftereffects > of these events. You don't have to know either. People I work with knows I contribute. I don't need to prove it to everyone in the community. Even for becoming a DD, I need only two advocates. >> I thought we already concluded this discussion. > > Given that it was so close to the dates of the event there was no point > in discussing further but down the line I think it is worth asking you > to clarify what exactly you hope to achieve. (And I say you because > your attitude is coming accross as "this is my baby and only I get to > say how it works.") Also down the line, if Debian-IN becomes an actual > organization it will have to make decisions on whether to support this > type of event or not. I have already articulated my view. A Free Software event organized by debian community. Since I got many people for last time, I feel there is a willingness to associate with such events. If I don't get any support, I will naturally stop doing it. But as long as community wants to do it, and as long as I'm not officially stopped, I plan to continue doing such events. > Um, isn't "us" a part of "we"? Do you mean to say that if ( _if_ ) the > Debian community in India decides to take a different course of action > than you are currently taking you would not follow suit? I don't recognize debian community in India as a decision making body. For me, its a place to meet and share ideas and find people to support each other. And this kind of attitude scares me from making any official organization for debian India. It would be used more for stopping other people rather than creating more opportunities to bring more people. I will continue to support activities I find interesting. > Come on, do I need to explain to a CS person the need for hard data in > order to debug and optimize? It is usually required when you want to invest in creating more returns. I don't see a value when I enjoy what I do.
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