--- Begin Message ---
- Subject: Comments on Debian packages and installation
- From: Various
- Date: Thu Dec 31 10:02:25 1998
Topics:
Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation
Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation
Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation
Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation
Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation
Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation
Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation
Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation
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Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:16:42 -0800
From: Joey Hess <joey@kitenet.net>
To: Adam Di Carlo <apharris@burrito.onshore.com>
Cc: debian-private@lists.debian.org, rms@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation
Message-ID: <19981230121641.B20356@kitenet.net>
References: <19981221083843.D1448@debian.org> <199812230833.BAA15785@wijiji.santafe.edu> <m3yanznoz5.fsf@homey.physics.arizona.edu> <199812240655.XAA29581@wijiji.santafe.edu> <yttempptnm6.fsf@gilgamesh.cse.ucsc.edu> <19981224134919.J308@osiris.978.org> <199812261910.OAA07657@psilocin.gnu.org> <19981228124447.G14830@boof.novare.net> <199812301325.IAA11059@psilocin.gnu.org> <[🔎] oapv91k3x4.fsf@burrito.fake>
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Adam Di Carlo wrote:
> As you may know, no package in the main Debian distribution may
> 'depend' or 'recommend' a non-free package. The 'suggests'
> relationship, which is only intepreted by dselect, needs to have it's
> GUI mechanics tuned so that relationships with non-free packages are
> *presented* without actually causing users to worry that they need
> that package. I think that can be done pretty simply with some
> verbage in dselect.
Everyone (except maybe Joseph Carter) seemed to ignore/not understand my
earlier message about this, so I'll say it again:
All we need to do is change dselect so if there is a Suggests: that points
to a package that is not in the available file, dselect does not show it to
the user. This will make users who do not have non-free selected at all not
see the suggests, and users who do chose to have non-free selected see them.
(Do you have a bug number yet for this bug report I can send this message to?)
- -
see shy jo
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Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:51:23 -0500
From: Peter S Galbraith <GalbraithP@dfo-mpo.gc.ca>
To: Joey Hess <joey@kitenet.net>
Cc: debian-private@lists.debian.org, rms@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation
Message-Id: <199812302051.PAA30576@mixing.qc.dfo.ca>
Joey Hess wrote:
> All we need to do is change dselect so if there is a Suggests: that points
> to a package that is not in the available file, dselect does not show it to
> the user. This will make users who do not have non-free selected at all not
> see the suggests, and users who do chose to have non-free selected see them.
True enough. But I can already see posts on debian-user saying
that we are hiding (non-free) software from users this way. But
I'm not sure because I avoid dselect so I'm unfamiliar with how
it currently deals with non-available sections. I mainly use the
Debian packages web page to shop for software.
Personally, I install from CD and therefore don't have non-free
available at install time. I would still like a mechanism where
I'm told about related non-free stuff so I can decide for myself
whether I should go to the trouble of ftp'ing it (whether dselect
does this now or not). I agree that the system shouldn't be made
to look broken if it isn't from the omission of non-free stuff
(unless it is broken).
I liked how the Debian Packages web pages indicated suggested
non-free packages with a big [non-free] next to them. But that
seems to have disappeared (probably a bug).
Peter
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Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:06:36 -0600
From: Jeff Noxon <jeff@planetfall.com>
To: Peter S Galbraith <GalbraithP@dfo-mpo.gc.ca>
Cc: Joey Hess <joey@kitenet.net>, debian-private@lists.debian.org, rms@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation
Message-ID: <19981230150636.A17362@planetfall.com>
References: <19981230121641.B20356@kitenet.net> <199812302051.PAA30576@mixing.qc.dfo.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Can't we just have dselect/apt ask the user whether they want to be
informed of package relationships with non-free packages?
It would be a great time to explain the reasons to use (or not use)
non-free software, and it would become a dselect preference setting
from that point on. The user would also be informed that selected free
packages still work without their non-free extras. A conffile would
remember the setting, and dselect would only have to bother the user to
answer the question (Do you prefer free speech or free beer?) once.
It seems to me that this solution would please most people.
Regards,
Jeff
On Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 03:51:23PM -0500, Peter S Galbraith wrote:
> True enough. But I can already see posts on debian-user saying
> that we are hiding (non-free) software from users this way. But
> I'm not sure because I avoid dselect so I'm unfamiliar with how
> it currently deals with non-available sections. I mainly use the
> Debian packages web page to shop for software.
>
> Personally, I install from CD and therefore don't have non-free
> available at install time. I would still like a mechanism where
> I'm told about related non-free stuff so I can decide for myself
> whether I should go to the trouble of ftp'ing it (whether dselect
> does this now or not). I agree that the system shouldn't be made
> to look broken if it isn't from the omission of non-free stuff
> (unless it is broken).
>
> I liked how the Debian Packages web pages indicated suggested
> non-free packages with a big [non-free] next to them. But that
> seems to have disappeared (probably a bug).
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Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 16:14:39 -0500
From: Ben Collins <bmc@visi.net>
To: Jeff Noxon <jeff@planetfall.com>
Cc: Peter S Galbraith <GalbraithP@dfo-mpo.gc.ca>, Joey Hess <joey@kitenet.net>,
debian-private@lists.debian.org, rms@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation
Message-ID: <19981230161439.J232@visi.net>
References: <19981230121641.B20356@kitenet.net> <199812302051.PAA30576@mixing.qc.dfo.ca> <19981230150636.A17362@planetfall.com>
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On Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 03:06:36PM -0600, Jeff Noxon wrote:
> Can't we just have dselect/apt ask the user whether they want to be
> informed of package relationships with non-free packages?
Why not take this a step further and allow apt/dselect to filter
options out of the standard view. Like don't view extra and optional
packages. Don't view non-free, contrib or non-us. Then also filter
based on what the packages' dependencies are, ie. don't show me
anything that depends or requires a package from non-free.
With this in place it would be easier to get dinstall to do what ever
you wanted by passing some command line args and opens up the
configuration to alot more customization rather than making one
change just for this task.
- -
- ---- -- - -------- --------- ---- ------- ----- - - --- --------
Ben Collins <b.m.collins@larc.nasa.gov> Debian GNU/Linux
UnixGroup Admin - Jordan Systems Inc. bcollins@debian.org
- ----- -- ----- - - ------- ------- -- The Choice of the GNU Generation
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Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 19:32:21 -0200
From: Lalo Martins <lalo@webcom.com>
To: debian-private@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation
Message-Id: <19981230193221.A709@lalo.dyn.ml.org>
References: <19981230121641.B20356@kitenet.net> <199812302051.PAA30576@mixing.qc.dfo.ca> <19981230150636.A17362@planetfall.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Dec 30, Jeff Noxon decided to present us with:
> Can't we just have dselect/apt ask the user whether they want to be
> informed of package relationships with non-free packages?
>
> It would be a great time to explain the reasons to use (or not use)
> non-free software, and it would become a dselect preference setting
> from that point on. The user would also be informed that selected free
> packages still work without their non-free extras. A conffile would
> remember the setting, and dselect would only have to bother the user to
> answer the question (Do you prefer free speech or free beer?) once.
Sounds good to me - "seconded" :-)
This conffile could also record the fact that I don't want the
damn thing to show a help screen before each dependency popup...
it's quite annoying after you got to learn the keys.
> On Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 03:51:23PM -0500, Peter S Galbraith wrote:
> > True enough. But I can already see posts on debian-user saying
> > that we are hiding (non-free) software from users this way. But
> > I'm not sure because I avoid dselect so I'm unfamiliar with how
> > it currently deals with non-available sections. I mainly use the
> > Debian packages web page to shop for software.
Me too, but I'm quite familiar with dselect also so here it
goes.
You select, say, gimp. It pops up a dependency screen. In the
info pane (below), it says: "gimp suggests gimp-nonfree.
gimp-nonfree doesn't seem to be available." I think this is what
RMS meant about "appearing to be broken".
[]s,
|alo
+----
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Debian GNU/Linux -- http://www.debian.org
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Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:40:03 -0600
From: Jeff Noxon <jeff@planetfall.com>
To: debian-private@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation
Message-ID: <19981230154003.A17619@planetfall.com>
References: <19981230121641.B20356@kitenet.net> <199812302051.PAA30576@mixing.qc.dfo.ca> <19981230150636.A17362@planetfall.com> <19981230193221.A709@lalo.dyn.ml.org>
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On Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 07:32:21PM -0200, Lalo Martins wrote:
> This conffile could also record the fact that I don't want the
> damn thing to show a help screen before each dependency popup...
> it's quite annoying after you got to learn the keys.
No kidding! Expert mode... Heh, as if any beginning user would believe
that dselect had anything _other_ than an expert mode. ;)
Regards,
Jeff
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Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:55:39 -0800
From: Joseph Carter <knghtbrd@debian.org>
To: Adam Di Carlo <apharris@burrito.onshore.com>,
debian-private@lists.debian.org, rms@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation
Message-ID: <19981230135539.C6983@debian.org>
References: <199812230833.BAA15785@wijiji.santafe.edu> <m3yanznoz5.fsf@homey.physics.arizona.edu> <199812240655.XAA29581@wijiji.santafe.edu> <yttempptnm6.fsf@gilgamesh.cse.ucsc.edu> <19981224134919.J308@osiris.978.org> <199812261910.OAA07657@psilocin.gnu.org> <19981228124447.G14830@boof.novare.net> <199812301325.IAA11059@psilocin.gnu.org> <[🔎] oapv91k3x4.fsf@burrito.fake> <19981230121641.B20356@kitenet.net>
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On Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 12:16:42PM -0800, Joey Hess wrote:
> > As you may know, no package in the main Debian distribution may
> > 'depend' or 'recommend' a non-free package. The 'suggests'
> > relationship, which is only intepreted by dselect, needs to have it's
> > GUI mechanics tuned so that relationships with non-free packages are
> > *presented* without actually causing users to worry that they need
> > that package. I think that can be done pretty simply with some
> > verbage in dselect.
>
> Everyone (except maybe Joseph Carter) seemed to ignore/not understand my
> earlier message about this, so I'll say it again:
>
> All we need to do is change dselect so if there is a Suggests: that points
> to a package that is not in the available file, dselect does not show it to
> the user. This will make users who do not have non-free selected at all not
> see the suggests, and users who do chose to have non-free selected see them.
>
> (Do you have a bug number yet for this bug report I can send this message to?)
Actually, it'd do to have it say "Ignoring suggestion for <package>" Of
course I am certain someone will ask "why did it ignore the suggestion?"
and we can either point them at something resembling docs or tell them
it's because the package isn't available and it's only suggested anyway
so it's not a big deal. Or something like that anyway.
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Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 13:01:48 +0100
From: Wichert Akkerman <wakkerma@cs.leidenuniv.nl>
To: debian-private@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation
Message-ID: <19981231130148.B372@cs.leidenuniv.nl>
References: <yttempptnm6.fsf@gilgamesh.cse.ucsc.edu> <199812261909.OAA07654@psilocin.gnu.org> <3685F788.E982E68D@dsp.net> <19981228010242.A934@cs.leidenuniv.nl> <199812291450.JAA10018@psilocin.gnu.org> <19981229160903.K660@ruhr-uni-bochum.de> <87lnjq26sq.fsf@debian.org> <19981230040940.A215@ruhr-uni-bochum.de> <19981230142253.D395@cs.leidenuniv.nl> <19981230121707.A2482@efis.ucr.ac.cr>
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Previously Marcelo E. Magallon wrote:
> It requieres a certain version of dpkg to work properly.
dpkg has nothing to do with it. It requires a new version of dselect to
work properly. Modifying how dselect handles Suggests is still a better
choice I think. It also means that an older dselect will still work, it
only is slightly more annoying.
While we're doing that we could probably also modify dselect so it will
do for Recommends what it is doing for Suggests now (ie only show the
conflict screen once).
Wichert.
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