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Re: call for ftpmaster's transparency

On Sunday, 9 February 2020 9:04:25 PM AEDT Michael Lustfield wrote:
> This is an understandable perspective, but secrecy probably isn't the best
> word.

Probably. If I had a better linguistic faculties then I could have find a 
better word. But I have had to use what I was available...

> I personally think this sounds like a fantastic (and not very difficult)
> idea.

Thank you.

> Where do you propose the bug mail be sent for NEW/binNEW packages without
> an ITP?

Same channels as usual. How can one comment to ITP that does not exist?

> I suspect when you say, "member of ftp-masters team," what you mean is
> "FTP-Masters Trainee."


> I agree that it could be valuable to see comments; however, they're almost
> always going to be from Trainees. Since we're not technically part of the
> team, it's important that we don't speak on behalf of the team. Publishing
> Trainee comments would effectively be doing that.

That's perfectly fine. I don't recall a single case when a package review was 
not appreciated. A review or even a question asked on ITP can be useful to 
correct a problem or to provide more background. Whether ITP feedback if 
provided by Trainee or not, it could be useful anyway.

> I would personally *LOVE* to see ITPs be a requirement for *ALL* new
> packages. Making it a requirement and expecting ftp-masters to ignore any
> upload until the ITP has existed for at least X days would be absolutely
> fantastic. It would fix some redundant library uploads (see
> golang/nodejs/etc.) and it would provide a mandatory level of review by
> the wider community.

I'm sure having it as a good practice would be enough without mandating a 
strong requirement to always have an ITP. There are might be legitimate cases 
to not file an ITP although I can think of only one such case when a source 
package is re-named...

> Back when I tried to get gitea packaged for main, I had a number of ITPs
> commented/closed mentioning the alternate library name or a reason it can't
> be packaged.

Makes sense.

> > I'd like Debian project leader to engage in the matter of improving
> > transparency of ftp-masters team operations and procedures.
> This feels a lot like starting a GR and not allowing appropriate
> discussion. It's heavy-handed, isn't going to get anywhere, and is going
> to hurt feelings.

Project leader's duty is to facilitate communication. It is not wrong to at 
least make him aware of the problem.

> > I want to encourage a public discussion regarding opening of the
> > ftp-master mail list to the public. Currently reasons for unjustified
> > secrecy of ftp- master processes is not explained...
> It's often said that emotions don't play well with productive discussions.
> Adding phrases such as "where it belong", using "secrecy" over "privacy",
> calling it "unjustified", and immediately jumping to demands of the DPL are
> accusatory and inflammatory, and will likely just get you ignored or start
> an unproductive flame war.

It is my general observation that bug reporters (or those who raise concerns 
on mail lists) naturally tend to be perceived over-emotionally. That's 
understandable because they are either affected by the issue or concerned 
enough to report it. And others probably take it less seriously or they would 
have reported it themselves...

Once again, "do not shoot the pianist" sort of speak... I've expressed the 
issue the best I could.

> Why do reviews take so long?

I'm not concerned about that, although it would be great to improve 
processing time. IMHO the bigger problem is that queue processing is 
unpredictable -- some packages, sometimes unimportant ones are processed very 
fast while others (including those that block some bug fixes) can stay in the 
queue for a very long time. It is very difficult to communicate urgency of a 
new package upload with ftpmasters. I'd probably use severity of pending ITP 
bug but I'm not sure if that would be effective or even the right thing to 

> - The team is tiny

IMHO this is a very serious issue. There are too few ftp-masters, they are 
doing too much work, most certainly not delegating enough and not growing the 

> - Much of the team seems very burned out

No wonder given the weight of responsibilities. I'm sure we are all much 
appreciate their hard work...

 Dmitry Smirnov.


We occasionally stumble over the truth but most of us pick ourselves up
and hurry off as if nothing had happened.
        -- Winston Churchill

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