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Re: Lost Trust

On Tue, Jun 01, 2004 at 11:05:03AM +0200, Eduard Bloch scribbled:
> #include <hallo.h>
> * Joe Wreschnig [Mon, May 31 2004, 11:32:02PM]:
> > > I fully agree with you on that and you've given very worthy examples of
> > > applications that replace the non-free ones. But note one thing - NONE of
> > > their authors came moaning that "acrobat is bad, it has to be removed, guys,
> > > remove it" - but they sat down and wrote the software. And what I was
> > > talking about were people who go talking about something being wrong, about
> > > politics, theoritizing and pointing fingers but doing nothing in order to
> > > change anything. If somebody comes and says "the tg driver is bad, because
> > > it is non free and I will remove it" and offers no alternative then, in my
> > > book, that person loses _all_ the credibility as a software developer and
> > > a person that can be trusted to do some task which requires responsibility.
> > 
> > So, if no free alternative exists, any proprietary program (whether we
> > have a legal right to distribute or not) can be in Debian if someone
> > packages it. (Don't respond with "I'm not saying that", because you
> > are.)
> Correct. That is why we have non-free as part of "distributable Debian".
> // Note for the fanatics: it's "not part of Debian" as "Debian = Debian main"
A side note here - notice how lively the fanatics react to the words
"non-free" and how cleverly they don't provide any solution. That tactic is
quite common in certain circles on this planet

> And I fully agree with Marek, especially since nobody did convince me
> that the embedded firmware chunks are not free-as-source. There are
> extreme cases where the distribution conditions were violating the GPL
> (IIRC Keyspan firmware) but this have been resolved in pre-woody times.
And even if there are, GPL is not a holy grail, nor is DFSG. There are cases
where it does make sense to make an exception and allow non-free or
non-compatible (license-wise) software to be distributed/used with GPL (note
- I'm not saying "free". GPL is NOT the only free software license, I would
argue it's one of the most non-free among the OSI-approved licenses) software.
For example OpenSSL which cannot be used with GPL software unless the latter
contains an exemption clause that allows its use with OpenSSL.

> > No, really, what the fuck are you smoking? Did you lose your place on
> > the road to SuSE or something? Debian consists *only free software*
> > whether or not some non-free program exists that can do something novel.
> What t.f. do you smoking? You deliberate work against our good old
> social contract regardless of the consequences. Mr. Palmer has been told
> where he was wrong and he failed to provide good proof for his claims.
> You seem to follow his way and cut arguments to loony claims.
That's seems to be the routine here, Eduard :)

> Maybe you should leave Debian and start the "Extremely Free Debian"
> project.
Now that might not be a bad idea... Ever movement has its conservatists,
liberals and extremists. I would say in Debian there are conservatists -
those who want to include all the non-free software we could legally
distribute, no matter whether there are replacement pieces of software for
the programs; the liberals - who want non-free software if not worthy
replacement exists; the extremists (Joe being one of them, he could be the
leader of the pack, or at least one of them :)) - who want no non-free
software even if they couldn't compile a C program because of that. I dare
say that the conservatists and liberals could come to some agreements, but
exteremists, and I love the idea, should start Extreme Debian.

> > (P.S. I have, with various people, freely reimplemented two entire
> > (music, graphics, code) proprietary games because I want to avoid
> > non-free software. So, don't lecture me about sitting down and coding.)
> Dude, we don't talk about drivers (IMHO in many cases they are not that
> hard to be developed if you did not sleep in the Protocol Engineering
> courses). We talk about firmware that runs inside of the device.



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