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Re: Debian menu system update

On Fri, May 30, 2003 at 11:19:44AM +0200, Bernhard R. Link wrote:
> * Colin Walters <walters@debian.org> [030529 22:40]:
> > Yes, it is our task to make it *consistent*.  It shouldn't be our task
> > to write menu entries from scratch, when upstreams can (and are) taking
> > on the task.  Our menu system should accept .desktop files, and ideally
> > process them natively.  
> I think making things consistent needs us to write them on our own,
> taking upstream entries as suggestions. In my eyes it is just the same
> as with the directories software is installed into. There are just too 
> many ways to do it and we do not serve our users well to let them all in.

I'll let you learn all the languages of the world so that we can throw 
away upstreams fully i18n menu entries...

> Of course it would be nice to have things on places, where users know
> them, but without an consistent concept overall, there is no use to it.
> (Last time I looked we did not put KDE in /opt, though that might have
>  things much easier and I'm sure many people were expecting it there...)

Its Debian that is being inconsistent...

> > The next step is to migrate to the Desktop Menu Specification.  This is
> > still in the process of being adopted by GNOME and KDE.  We will need to
> > rewrite our menu-methods to process the .menu files. 
> The menu-methods are there to generate the menus for the menu-providers,
> to parse whatever format is the menu-entries is update-menus' task.
> It would be nice to make menu-methods to generate .menu files easier.
> I think making update-menus able to parse files in dektop menu
> specification will only cause such files beeing included without
> inspection by newbies.

I do not understand this statement. Why would newbies inspect desktop
entries to begin with...

> > After that, our user experience with popular desktops should be much
> > more consistent, 
> As adminstrator of some systems with many users, I'd prefer if this
> broken KDE could at least be packaged with hints how to get rid of
> its broken menu and a debian menu pluged in instead. (I've long given
> up hope to get a useful menu in it by default, I know its KDEs
> philosophie to not integrate but creating a world of its own. But at
> least the debian packages could provide some information how to get
> some minimal usability in it).

It is Debian that is broken since it does not follow the desktop menu
specification. Both GNOME and KDE follow it and will soon have
integrated menus, only Debian stuff will then be outside of the menu.
>From the desktop spec it appears that both XFCE and ROX support it as
well but I haven't run them before.

> > and it will be less work to integrate new software into
> > Debian (since upstreams will be adopting .desktop), 
> There a many things, that make proper packaging of software a
> complex matter. Writing this single line to get a menu-item
> should really no problem. And if it was I really doubt the
> person involved was competent enough to look in the .desktop-file
> if it is reasonable...

Now it becomes obvious you did not look at any .desktop files either...
slashdot is dooming us all. A single Debian Developer _CAN NOT_ write
decent menu entries _period_. See the attached konqueror desktop file,
notice it has translations for 57 languages. Also notice Debian does good
to get translations for debconf entries for more than 1 language, and
thats only after someone decides to submit bug reports (in other words
takes a long time).

> > and other
> > distributors will benefit from the .desktop files Debian developers
> > write.
> This makes a shoe out if it. Debian is *much* more than KDE and GNOME,
> using .dektop will in the long run cause masses of people learn a new
> format and in order to get a coherent understandable system need rewrite
> of masses of old

Debian people SHOULD NOT be writing the menu entries. And it is trivial
to learn if a DD does want to submit a skeleton one to their upstream. As
I already said above a menu entry written by only one person is of little
value since it will have no or very little i18n support.

> > A Debian-specific menu system is the entirely wrong way to go.
> A working menu is a good way to go. The currest system works and has
> many nice aspects of configurability and administrability, missing in
> the newer parts. Only thing I see missing are KDE packages obeying
> menu policy.

The current system is limping along and needs to be shot. KDE obeys
menu policy just fine (afaik) it has stupid i18n-less debian menu
entries but when used in KDE itself it uses its fully i18n'd .desktop
files just like GNOME.


PS - Next time try to learn about a system before showing you don't
understand the issues at all.
[Desktop Entry]
Exec=kfmclient openProfile webbrowsing

Name=Konqueror Web Browser
Name[af]=Konqueror Web Blaaier
Name[az]=Konqueror Veb SÉ?yyahı
Name[bg]=WWW-бÑ?оÑ?зеÑ? Konqueror
Name[br]=Furcher Gwiad Konqueror
Name[bs]=Konqueror web preglednik
Name[ca]=Fullejador Web Konqueror
Name[cs]=Internetový prohlížeÄ? Konqueror
Name[da]=Konqueror Netsøger
Name[de]=Web-Browser Konqueror
Name[el]=ΠεÏ?ιηγηÏ?ήÏ? Konqueror
Name[eo]=Tuttera Teksaĵo
Name[es]=Navegador Web Konqueror
Name[et]=Veebibrauser Konqueror
Name[eu]=Konqueror Web Arakatzailea
Name[fa]=Ù?رÙ?رگر شبکÙ?â??Û? کاÙ?کرر
Name[fi]=Konqueror WWW-selain
Name[fr]=Konqueror (navigateur Web)
Name[gl]=Navegador Web Konqueror
Name[he]=×?פ×?פ×? ×?×?×?× ×?רנ×? Konqueror
Name[hr]=Konquerer web preglednik
Name[hu]=Konqueror webböngészÅ?
Name[id]=Browser web Konqueror
Name[is]=Konqueror vafrari
Name[it]=Browser Web Konqueror
Name[ja]=Konqueror ã?¦ã?§ã??ã??ã?©ã?¦ã?¶
Name[ko]=컹커ë?¬ ì?¹ í??ì??기
Name[lo]=�ວ���າວ��ີ Konqueror
Name[lt]=Konqueror Žiniatinklio narÅ¡yklÄ?
Name[lv]=IekarotÄ?js Web PÄ?rlÅ«ks
Name[mk]=Ð?Ñ?елиÑ?Ñ?Ñ?ваÑ?оÑ? Konqueror
Name[mt]=Web Browser Konqueror
Name[nb]=Konqueror nettleser
Name[nl]=Konqueror Webbrowser
Name[nn]=Nettlesaren Konqueror
Name[nso]=Seinyakisi sa Web ya Konqueror
Name[oc]=Navigador Web Konqueror
Name[pl]=PrzeglÄ?darka Konqueror
Name[pt]=Navegador Konqueror
Name[pt_BR]=Navegador Web Konqueror
Name[ro]=Navigator de web Konqueror
Name[ru]=Ð?еб-бÑ?аÑ?зеÑ? Konqueror
Name[se]=Fierpmádatlogan Konqueror
Name[sk]=Web priehliadaÄ? Konqueror
Name[sl]=Brskalnik Konqueror
Name[sr]=Konqueror Web Ä?itaÄ?
Name[sv]=Webbläsaren Konqueror
Name[ta]=¸¡ý¦¸¡�÷ �¨� ¯�¡�¢
Name[th]=�ว���ราว��อร� Konqueror
Name[tr]=Konqueror Web Tarayıcı
Name[uk]=Ð?авÑ?гаÑ?оÑ? ТенеÑ? 'Konqueror'
Name[ven]=WEbe buraunza ya Konqueror
Name[vi]=Trình duy�t web Konqueror 
Name[xh]=Umkhangeli zincwadi we Konqueror Web
Name[zh_CN]=Konqueror Web ���
Name[zh_TW]=Konqueror 網é ?ç??覽å?¨
Name[zu]=Umcingi we-web we-Konqueror

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