Re: Please notify the maintainers when removing packages
On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 02:53:16PM +0200, Michael Banck wrote:
> On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 02:13:23PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > Also, do you not think the users of the package deserve to know that
> > there is problem with a given package ?
>
> I suspect that packages don't get removed just for the fun of it, but
> because they have release-critical bugs, which are documented in the
> BTS. I mean, *sheesh*, having release-critical bugs *is* the
> notification that a package will get removed from testing before the
> release, should the maintainer not fix those bugs.
Yes, but what does it cost to send the email ? Like some other said,
nobody reads the email sent to d-d-a. If there was a section on added
packages, or only on the ones marked removed, maybe it would be
different, but right now, it is not really all that usefull. There are
other ways of getting the same information, through the PTS, or BTS,
which are much more easy to use.
In one of our last releases, packages got removed, and once we released
without them, and people upgraded, they got upset and complained about
the missing packages. They got responded with disdain that the removal
was announced to d-d-a and that they should have noticed.
Also notice that d-d-a only addresses the debian developers, not the
random users which may be interested in the package and would go bug
fixing if they knew their package would be about to be removed.
I think the thinking behind this is because these packages are not
properly maintained or something, we should not care much about them,
and their maintainer is in the wrong, since he did let it happen in the
first place, and doesn't read the announcement in d-d-a.
I had one package that almost got removed, and which i noticed at the
last moment. The bug in question was of questionable value, and i let it
open because there were more serious things i was working on in my other
packages. It was a question of priority of spending my free time, not
that i didn't care.
And anyway, the removal is an arbitrary decision on the part of the
release manager, not something automatic defined in clear cut rules, so
a bit more public notice is ok in this.
> > I think the correct solution to this is to fill a bug report stating
> > the about to be removed or something such of the package, so that both
> > the maintainer get informed and also the user who cares about the
> > package.
>
> I don't think this is useful.
Yes, you don't think so, and the one running the script generating the
mail also don't think so, but that doesn't mean it is not usefull.
> > Or do we not say in our social contract that we will not hide problems
> > ?
> ^
> (Another example why seperating question marks with whitespace is bad.)
Well, it is common typographical practice in some language, well french
at least, and makes for more readible sentences anyway, like putting a
space after the , and not before. And it is not because vi doesn't know
how to properly do the automatic splitting when in presence of a
trailing ? that it is bad to use it. The proper way to solve it would be
to fix this (minor) bug in vi, not to say the usage is bad. And in truth
there is a parallel to the problem at hand. The proper way is to send
mail to package maintainers, it doesn't cost much, a line or two in the
script and a bunch of mails which can get send in an automated way, so
peoples arguing against doing it could as well either change their mind
or provide a real reason why we should not do it, instead of this
arrogant 'but you are supposed to read d-d-a and are already informed',
which doesn't conform to the realities of what trully happens.
Please tell me, do you really read the full content of the bugscan mail ?
> Anyway, please don't put down the social contract by invoking it
> randomly when you think others don't agree with you.
:)))
But by putting stuff in an obscure location and submerging the reader
with lot of unrelated information is as sure a way as hiding the
information as would not giving it at all.
> > Maybe an explicative mail of the situation to the maintainer/BTS, and
> > asking for feedback on the problem and/or orphaning the package would be
> > a good solution don't you think.
>
> The correct solution is to FIX THE BUGS, either by removing the package
> from testing, or by doing (Non-)Maintainer-Uploads fixing them, period.
You haven't given any argument to why _not_ to send a mail to the BTS or
the package maintainer, and given the real minimal cost of doing this,
there is really no sane reason not to send this mail.
The correct way, as i see it, would be to send a mail to at least the exact
bug entry that is triggering the removal. If there is no such bug
report, removing the package is premature, since it is because of
problems that have not been reported. If there are more than one, fine,
send a mail to all of them.
This is the correct solution, the rest is just arrogant support of the
status quo, and wasting of the valuable free time of _every_ debian
developer for no valuable reason at all. Sure, it is not much time, a
few second or minutes, but if you multiply this by each developer and
each weekly bugscan mail, it makes more.
> still friendly,
Sure, sure, just provide true argument instead of the 'no there is no
reason for it.' you are giving.
Friendly,
Sven Luther
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