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Re: Bug#176267: ITP: mplayer -- Mplayer is a full-featured audioand video player for UN*X like systems


> #include <hallo.h>
> * Gabucino [Mon, Jan 27 2003, 11:56:14AM]:
> > > > so the users have to download the missing half from the net, breaking the
> > > > law. debian's law.
> > > We do not forbid anyone the downloads from the net.
> > Nor do you provide uncrippled media player software.
> If some upstream author distends the line between legal and illegal
> code, there is no other way.

there is: do not include it at all.
it's still better than an unusably cripped version.

> > > Hahaha. Two-three years ago. And in that time, there were faster
> > > alternatives for common used systems, Ogle, iirc.
> > Ogle is only good for one thing: DVD menus (but it's real good in it).
> The fact is, even on a relative old multimedia system (say, Athlon-500
> with TNT2), you can use both Xine and Mplayer for MPEG2/DivX videos with
> XVideo, and you cannot use either of them without XVideo. You can be
> keen on your maximum acceleration for aalib and SVGAlib output features
> as long as you want, there are not many people using them.

Bad, very bad.
I have a p2-250mhz system for testing, and I'm _able_ to play the matrix DVD
with 15% framedrop using -vo vesa and 0% framedrop with -vo mga.
Neither vesa or mga_vid are aalib or svgalib.
We aren't talking about aalib and svgalib (except Gabucino with his EGA and
CGA monitors. bleh.) but mga_vid, vidix, vesa and others. If i understood
right they are all illegal by your means.

> > > Debian STABLE serves users that want quality software, that installs without
> > > problems and runs acceptably.
> > So crippling libavcodec, AC3 and ASF out of MPlayer would make it run
> > acceptably? Cool :)
> Come on, be honest, do you need AC3 and ASF support for mostly used
> formats nowadays?

Yes. Did you ever played any DVD without AC3 audio? I've never seen any
discs having mpeg-layer2 audio (but anyway you dropped mp3lib too so no mpeg
audio support), only a few music dvds come with LPCM sound. All movies
have AC3 and sometimes DTS audio. DTS is not supoprted at all under linux.

And about ASF. It's the same format as WMA and WMV, maybe it's new for you.
And - probably also unknown by you - the 90% of streamed media use the windows
media format. The rest is quicktime (isn't SOrenson video and MPEG4 illegal?) 
or RealMedia.

So at the end you won't be able to play 95% of the net, and the rest is also
illegal due to binary-only codecs...

> > Get real: this "Debian STABLE+legal" policy _does_ _not_ _allow_ _a_ _usable_
> > _media_ _player_ to enter into Debian. Neither xine, nor MPlayer.
> Put in in all caps if you want - the definition of "usable" remains
> a moving target, see above. And the Xine case will be discussed.

see above? read above. and think.

> > > Wrong. If someone sues you, you just take the problematic software from
> > > the net and then you can find a sane solution with the lawyers. But we
> > > cannot. What should our parners and CD sellers do? Burn all printed
> > > media to ashes? And SuSE cannot (though, they are willing to risk more,
> > > see KDE1 case), for example. Please open your eyes. Bleeding edge
> > > software may promise you better software quality, but it does not
> > > allways. You do not separate development and frozen branches, so there
> > > is allways risk when using MPlayer.
> > Sorry for quoting this much, but you read _nothing_ of Arpi's paragraph
> > below. Nor did you answer any questions. Instead of answering why
> > libavcodec in xine is _legal_, and why libavcodec in MPlayer is _illegal_,
> > you talk about bleeding edge software being bad.
> > Please answer the questions.
> You miss the point, more and more. The only thing you want to see is
> that Xine made it into official Debian distro in unmodified form, and
> you don't.

Bad. We do NOT WANT to see it, but we HAVE TO see it. BIG difference!

> Well, the reason is simple - it was free to be distributed in
> binary form, there were no troublemakers like you, telling everybody to
> compile from source or die. If Xine's inclusion brings legal problems,
> it will be removed again.

Just apply the same rules to everyone. Is it so big thing to ask?

> > > or you admit officially that Mplayer is unstable development software and
> > > should not be packaged by anyone.
> > So how does this come to legality, xine, and libavcodec?
> Stop talking about Xine. Just release our mind and talk about _your_
> problems and not only about problems of others.

The problems are the same, and xine is a live, existing example while
we're only "dreaming" about the mplayer case.
So, if we discuss XIne case, we'll get the answer to mplayer problems too.
But I agree, it's boring to discuss xine, let's talk about mplayer then.
We don't want that an unusable crppled-down version of mpleyer be included
in debian. Take it as-is or don't take it.
We have no problems with source distrubition, nor with binary distribution
if done well.

> > > > he makes usable, working packages. i expected teh same from debian but they
> > > So what, and are his packages in the official Redhat distribution?
> > Did you really expect RedHat to do that after it removed even its MP3 players?
> > Debian is just a little bit better than that, but is continuously getting
> > worse..
> Please think about your own position and what you expect others to do.
> It seems that you did not read anything from my statement above. Again:
> you can risk some legality problems if you are are a small, single
> project, without media distribution, without distribution in binary
> form, without any responsibilities. Situation is MUCH DIFFERENT for
> everybody else. There is no "better" or "worse" when dealing with
> legality issues. It is either legal, or illegal, sometimes you can
> afford a lawyer that can estimate the danger, but it is then still _risk_.

Of course we can accept this. You should start the discussion with this.
But, then answer 2 little questions:
- why is xine, avifile etc there? :)
- why do you want to include (cripped-down or whole) mplayer in debian?

if it's a risk, just left out. no one will sue you.

A'rpi / Astral & ESP-team

Developer of MPlayer, the Movie Player for Linux - http://www.MPlayerHQ.hu
    "However, many people beg for its inclusion in Debian. Why?" - Gabucino
  "Because having new software in Debian is good." - Josselin Mouette
"Because having good software in Debian is new." - Gabucino

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