#include <hallo.h> * Branden Robinson [Tue, Nov 12 2002, 05:28:54AM]: > [Everyone except Osamu Aoki may want to read the bottom of this mail > first. Alternatively, see <http://bugs.debian.org/168347>.] > > On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 11:43:03AM -0800, Osamu Aoki wrote: > > File: /etc/X11/Xsession.d/50xfree86-common_determine-startup > > > > Issues: > > 1) Full path was not given for REALSTARTUP (Just to be safe side) ^^^^^^^^^ > > I don't understand what you mean by this. Think, Branden, think, and try using Debian as a new user. Run startx MyWM What will happen? > REALSTARTUP, in the stock version of the script, can only be either > $STARTUP or $ALTSTARTUP; both are defined as full paths in > /etc/X11/Xsession. > > Of course, people can edit the conffiles to change (break) this. Break? YOU even recommended editing the files because of the evil default configuration with x-session-manager, see below. > > 2) If x-session-manager is installed on the system, it gets quite > > intrusive to make one of the x-window-manager as the system default > > (I like blackbox but want to have some accounts with KDE or GNOME.) > > I don't know what's intrusive about changing three lines in a conffile. > > The default system policy should reflect the needs of most of the users > on the system. (Or the needs of the "most important" users if you have > a caste system on a multiuser machine.) A user wants to change this comfortably. For most things, there is a nifty way using update-alternatives. You do not want to cooperate with this method. Why? > If nobody on the system even needs GNOME or KDE, why have them > installed? He? Are you the single user on you machine? I have that impression. > > 3) If alternative system is broken (as I did recently), > > If the alternative system is broken, fix it (if you messed it up) or > file a bug (if a Debian package messed it up). BTW, I sent a fix to debian-dpkg@..., to not reset the setting each time when a package tried to do something unexpected with update-alternatives. > The alternatives system is an important system resource; it is provided > by an Essential package (dpkg) and it needs to be operational, just as > we'd expect dpkg, sh, or the dynamic loader to be operational. Wow, really? /* bad sarcasm */ > > fall-back scenario is weak. (Let's fall-back to twm or xterm to > > make people aware there is life beyond GNOME and KDE. Both xterm > > and twm are in your associated packages). > > 1) That's exactly what happens if these packages are installed, and if > the alternatives system isn't "broken". What about asking the user what he prefers to do? I did already suggest you to include a such setting since _your_ packages are centric, they are allways installed, any _you_ are in the best position to place a such ??debconf dialog?? somewhere in the xfree-common setup. > 2) twm and xterm should not enjoy a privileged status. > 3) One of the motivations behind "x-session-manager" is to illustrate > the converse point: there is life beyond twm and xterm. <newbie-mode>Okay, the demonstration was impressive, but how can I get rid of it when only my grandma wanna use this x-bloat-manager? I just wanna have my wmaker back.</newbie-mode> > > Please consider replacing 50xfree86-common_determine-startup with > > something like attached file and update /etc/X11/Xsession.options > > accordingly as attached file. (Oops, I do not have manual page) > > Until you can address the points above, I won't be. > > However, since you're not the only person who is apparently aggravated > out of his mind with the current approach (Eduard Bloch seldom misses an > opportunity to be abusive to me regarding my conffiles), perhaps the He? I am pissed and gave up trying to convince you. > best thing to do is to arrange a summit among all the package > maintainers of desktop evironments and display managers in Debian (maybe > a few window manager maintainers, too). Why? x-session-manager providing package should be allowed to do so. But I as _admin_ wish to have an option to set x-sesion-manager work as "none" or "skip" and use the regular WM instead. > Just as you are irritated that 50xfree86-common_determine-startup > doesn't work the way you want it to by default, I am annoyed that at > least some of the other display managers (gdm, kdm, wdm) do not use > /etc/X11/Xsession by default, which leads to an inconsistent user > experience. Should be unified. All of this. > release? Once we have hammered something out, we can make it Policy. > To that end, I've CCed a couple of mailing lists and a few package > maintainers. Oh yeah, the Debian Desktop Project probably wants to be > involved as well. :) If I have overlooked anyone, please convey my > invitation to this (currently unscheduled) summit. Feel free to join #debian-desktop. Gruss/Regards, Eduard. -- Normal bohrt. (Babelfish übersetzt "Normal is boring.")
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