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Re: [desktop] Seeking Summit to Discuss X Display and Session Management

#include <hallo.h>
* Branden Robinson [Tue, Nov 12 2002, 05:28:54AM]:

> [Everyone except Osamu Aoki may want to read the bottom of this mail
> first.  Alternatively, see <http://bugs.debian.org/168347>.]
> On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 11:43:03AM -0800, Osamu Aoki wrote:
> > File:  /etc/X11/Xsession.d/50xfree86-common_determine-startup
> > 
> > Issues:
> >  1) Full path was not given for REALSTARTUP (Just to be safe side)

> I don't understand what you mean by this.

Think, Branden, think, and try using Debian as a new user. Run

startx MyWM

What will happen?

> REALSTARTUP, in the stock version of the script, can only be either
> $STARTUP or $ALTSTARTUP; both are defined as full paths in
> /etc/X11/Xsession.
> Of course, people can edit the conffiles to change (break) this.

Break? YOU even recommended editing the files because of the evil
default configuration with x-session-manager, see below.

> >  2) If x-session-manager is installed on the system, it gets quite
> >     intrusive to make one of the x-window-manager as the system default
> >     (I like blackbox but want to have some accounts with KDE or GNOME.)
> I don't know what's intrusive about changing three lines in a conffile.
> The default system policy should reflect the needs of most of the users
> on the system.  (Or the needs of the "most important" users if you have
> a caste system on a multiuser machine.)

A user wants to change this comfortably. For most things, there is a
nifty way using update-alternatives. You do not want to cooperate with
this method. Why?

> If nobody on the system even needs GNOME or KDE, why have them
> installed?

He? Are you the single user on you machine? I have that impression.

> >  3) If alternative system is broken (as I did recently),
> If the alternative system is broken, fix it (if you messed it up) or
> file a bug (if a Debian package messed it up).

BTW, I sent a fix to debian-dpkg@..., to not reset the setting each time
when a package tried to do something unexpected with

> The alternatives system is an important system resource; it is provided
> by an Essential package (dpkg) and it needs to be operational, just as
> we'd expect dpkg, sh, or the dynamic loader to be operational.

Wow, really? /* bad sarcasm */

> >     fall-back scenario is weak.  (Let's fall-back to twm or xterm to
> >     make people aware there is life beyond GNOME and KDE. Both xterm
> >     and twm are in your associated packages).
> 1) That's exactly what happens if these packages are installed, and if
> the alternatives system isn't "broken".

What about asking the user what he prefers to do? I did already suggest
you to include a such setting since _your_ packages are centric, they
are allways installed, any _you_ are in the best position to place a
such ??debconf dialog?? somewhere in the xfree-common setup.

> 2) twm and xterm should not enjoy a privileged status.
> 3) One of the motivations behind "x-session-manager" is to illustrate
> the converse point: there is life beyond twm and xterm.

<newbie-mode>Okay, the demonstration was impressive, but how can I get
rid of it when only my grandma wanna use this x-bloat-manager? I just
wanna have my wmaker back.</newbie-mode>

> > Please consider replacing 50xfree86-common_determine-startup with
> > something like attached file and update /etc/X11/Xsession.options
> > accordingly as attached file.  (Oops, I do not have manual page)
> Until you can address the points above, I won't be.
> However, since you're not the only person who is apparently aggravated
> out of his mind with the current approach (Eduard Bloch seldom misses an
> opportunity to be abusive to me regarding my conffiles), perhaps the

He? I am pissed and gave up trying to convince you.

> best thing to do is to arrange a summit among all the package
> maintainers of desktop evironments and display managers in Debian (maybe
> a few window manager maintainers, too).

Why? x-session-manager providing package should be allowed to do so. But
I as _admin_ wish to have an option to set x-sesion-manager work as
"none" or "skip" and use the regular WM instead.

> Just as you are irritated that 50xfree86-common_determine-startup
> doesn't work the way you want it to by default, I am annoyed that at
> least some of the other display managers (gdm, kdm, wdm) do not use
> /etc/X11/Xsession by default, which leads to an inconsistent user
> experience.

Should be unified. All of this.

> release?  Once we have hammered something out, we can make it Policy.
> To that end, I've CCed a couple of mailing lists and a few package
> maintainers.  Oh yeah, the Debian Desktop Project probably wants to be
> involved as well.  :)  If I have overlooked anyone, please convey my
> invitation to this (currently unscheduled) summit.

Feel free to join #debian-desktop.

Normal bohrt. (Babelfish übersetzt "Normal is boring.")

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