Re: New-maintainer proposal
On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, Josip Rodin wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 17, 1999 at 07:33:35PM +0000, Dale Scheetz wrote:
> >
> > As soon as the group started to grow, the solution to traffic began to be
> > the creation of alternative lists. As we have grown, the number of "sub"
> > lists has grown as well, and it seems that the confusion and uncertainties
> > we are dealing with today grew from those very fracturings of the lists.
>
> Although I have been in Debian for just one year, so far I haven't noticed
> *that* many people who are confused about the number of the mailing lists.
I wasn't saying that they were confused by the multiplicity of lists, but
by the lack of information about activies and decissions made on lists
that "no one is required to subscribe to". I speak to the cluelessness
addressed by the new maintainer team about the most recent influx of
developers, and suggest that the fractured mailing lists are a
contributing factor to this cluelessness.
The fact is, that if you really want to know what is going on with Debian,
you really must subscribe to all the lists, and we have no requirements
that maintainers subscribe to any of them.
The cohesiveness of the original group I joined was primarily maintained
by the fact that we all read the same mailing list, so anything "Debian"
was heard by all. The fracturing of this communication medium into ever
increasing fine detail, without the requirement that anyone be aware of
anything that may go on there, is what I see as the major contributing
factor to all the factional in-fighting that seems to be the prevalent
mode of communication today.
>
> I find it quite nice to be able to select what Debian material I want to
> read.
And if there is important information being dicussed on one of the list
that you don't want to read, you miss it. While you are a reasonable
fellow who doesn't go ballistic when they find out someone has been
"plotting" behind their backs, every instance of such a snafu comes about
as the result of information known to a few on a specific list that has
not been adequately communicated to the rest of the group. Someone is
always left out under these circumstances.
>
> > > > > are not interested in 'project politics' can avoid subscribing to
> > > > > -project.
> > > >
> > > > These "people" you refer too are Debian developers, right? Why would a
> > > > person expect to be a developer and not need to know about such things as
> > > > "project politics"
> > >
> > > We all know what Jules meant by "project politics" - the usual flamewars
> > > about various non-strictly-technical issues regarding Debian. I (and I
> > > believe many others) think that those things don't belong to the
> > > debian-devel mailing list, but on the debian-project list.
> >
> > I am constantly surprised by the number of people who see, what I see as a
> > good discussion, as a flame war. Several of our developers are unable to
> > put two sentances together without an explative, and we all know who they
> > are and make allowances for their behavior. (except the new guys, who are
> > usually willing to take it personally ;-)
> >
> > If "project politics" is to be construed as "flame wars", then what _do_
> > we call a political discussion?
>
> Don't get me wrong (once again) - I do not think that any discussion on
> debian-* lists is a flame war. However, large percentage of threads which
> relate to any kind of 'inflamable' material grow into flame wars.
>
> > > Don't get me wrong - flamewars are okay, can even bring some conclusions
> > > or results - but only if they don't happen in inappropriate places. Now
> > > that we have debian-project mailing list, debian-devel has become an
> > > inappropriate place for non-technical flamewars.
> > >
> > So, to stay away from "flame wars" I should not subscribe to
> > debian-project, but my complaint to Wichert was that he was going to move
> > the discussion of new-maintainer to that list, eliminating my input, and
> > my knowledge of the discussion from something that I think is of utmost
> > importance to the group!
> >
> > Do you consider this thread to be a "flame war"? I don't, and I _do_
> > consider it to be a discussion of project politics.
>
> I think that we should be talking about this on debian-project list. :)
>
> > > > > Most (um.. this is a guess, I don't know) maintainers *aren't*
> > > > > subscribed to -devel as it is, so you it certainly currently fails its
> > > > > goal as a place where important traffic can be discussed.
> > > >
> > > > The fact that developers can _not_ subscribe to devel is a _large_
> > > > mistake.
> > >
> > > Who said developers can not subscribe to debian-devel list?
> >
> > Sorry for the poor wording. Replace "can" with "are allowed to", i.e.
> > "may".
>
> [1]
>
> So, you wanted to say that a lot of developers indeed are subscribed to
> debian-devel list? Well - with this discussion, which doesn't fit in the
No, I'm saying that we say it is ok if you don't subscribe, resulting in
many developers _not_ being subscribed. We allow them to not subscribe,
and they take the option.
> charter of that list (IMHO), we just might be causing some of those to
> unsubscribe from the list!
>
Not if being subscribed to -devel was a requirement for all developers. We
could then discard most of the other lists.
> > > > > Also note that some people may not consider this important traffic.
> > > >
> > > > Then they should not have accepted a developer position with the Debian
> > > > project.
> > >
> > > Conclusions, decisions, votings - these are important, sure. Whole ~500-msgs
> > > flamewars regarding the subject are rarely important.
> >
> > So, do what I do when a thread turns into a flame war, just don't read it!
>
> Maybe that's easy for you (and me, for now) to say something like that - but
> people who pay by the byte, and pay a lot for it, won't be so joyful about
> that...
I also pay for my internet connection. Not by the byte, but there are
inherent personal costs of doing business as a developer not matter where
you are. Each prospective maintainer would then be able to decide before
becoming a developer, whether or not such costs are worth the return. If
you are not able to shoulder the load, why _must_ you be a Debian
developer?
The number of e-mails that I get, on average, has not changed
substantially since I first became a developer. I'm subscribed to many,
but not all (policy is a prime example) of the current lists. If that
traffic is too expensive for a prospective developer, then they probably
should not become one.
>
> > I am a fairly contientious developer, and I feel that it is my duty to
> > know what decissions are being made in my behest, but it becomes more
> > difficult every time a list splitoff occurs. I simply view the high
> > traffic loads as a "cost of doing business", which everyone who wants to
> > become a developer should be prepaired to shoulder. Obviously, I am in the
> > minority opinion on this issue ;-)
>
> Yes :)
>
> > > Anyway, here I am, talking about CC:ing inappropriate lists, and CC:ing
> > > a couple of such myself... :< :(
> > >
> > 'Tis a puzzlement ;-)
> >
> > I think the main point I would make about the proposal for new-maintainer
> > is this: If this is a proposal that developers are going to be expected to
> > vote on, then the discussion should be carried on debian-vote, not some
> > list who's primary purpose is to provide an adequate venue for flame wars.
>
> Are the developers going to be expected to vote on it? We didn't vote on
> anything regarding the old new-maintainer group, IIRC...
>
We have a constitution that takes proposals and makes them into Debian
practice by a voting process. If you make a formal proposal, I would
expect that you intended to call for a vote. Wichert appeared to be making
a "formal" proposal, just because he is our fearless leader.
> [1] My, oh my... poor wording? We didn't expect *that* from you... :)
>
I'm sorry to disapoint you, but my feet are just as clay as the next guy.
I have made the points I wanted to make, and due to family complications
(my father died today) I'm going to be occupied with RL, so I hope you can
carry on without me for a bit.
Luck,
Dwarf
--
_-_-_-_-_- Author of "The Debian Linux User's Guide" _-_-_-_-_-_-
aka Dale Scheetz Phone: 1 (850) 656-9769
Flexible Software 11000 McCrackin Road
e-mail: dwarf@polaris.net Tallahassee, FL 32308
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