Re: RH and GNOME
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On 25 Jul 1998, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> Really? I have seen no proposals, no suggestions, and in fact,
> nothing specific beyond "We are user unfriendly. We should have a GUI
> based install". Have you looked at the boot floppies? Or at APT? Have
> you looked at the various thinkgs like sendmailconfig that Debian has
> put in to help configure complex packages? Have you looked at
> kernel-package, that helps people to compile kernels?
As one who is completly confused by your completly political idea of a
"technical proposal" I would like to give you a exact idea of what I think
debian should do. but first: I'm in the process of trying to find a set of
install scripts that I can look at and vivisect. However they seem to be
the deepest darkest seekrets of debian, and as of yet, I haven't found a
copy of dinstall... (although I did, find a package to creat boot
flopys... I will look into that further, as soon as I dispell (or try) the
fears that I'm just trying to waste ppl's time. No, I haven't yet played
with apt, however to my knowlage apt isn't truly complete yet, and is
therefore I don't think I should be jugeing it Yet. however all the things
you mentioned are already underway and therefore, not needing discussion.
>
> What bloody mindset are you talking about? You come and accuse
> people of not being freindly to users, and berate them for not doing
> anything, totally ignoring the ease-of-use efforts under way, and
> ignoring the efforts that people are making, and so far, I have seen
> little that is constructive from you, all I see is complaints that
> are too general and diffuse to be helpful.
I'm not ignoreing what is underway, however it has little relavence to
what I'm trying to get accross. as for being constructive, what methods do
you sugjest for this... I thought the proper way was to bring it up for
discusion on devel. in a previous e-mail I discribed in a list what I
thought debian should do, if that was not constructive enouph please read
the forthcoming message titled "tech proposal for manoj" please read twice
before responding.
> Petra> ah, yes, such a selfish attitude. I'm not saying we make
> Petra> EVERYTHING like 98, but a few things... like, installation,
> Petra> and manpages.
>
> windows has decent manpages? really? and what is wrong weith
> the boot floppies now? Can we have some specifics, which could
> actually (horrors!) help, rather than a diffuse, unspecific
> complaint?
I'm truly sorry if you thought I was meaning to say that windows has
manpages. what I meant was that debian, should provide a easyer install
mechininism with yet more documentation available for newbie mode.
>
>
> >> Not every OS is meant for everyone.
>
> Petra> NO aperantly debian, is only developed for those, who ALREADY
> Petra> know enouph knowlage to use linux on it's own.
>
> Correct.
agian I ask why is this?
>
>
> >> What the hell makes you think we do not care for our users?
>
> Petra> what makes you think we do, I mean look at your attitude
>
> My attitude is that I help those who help themselves. I am not
> very sympathetic to people who want everything right now, and do not
> want to spend time to learn, yes. If you think this is user
> unfreindly, so be it.
What if the user has no idea where to start looking for documentation? ...
I just did a clean install of deb 2.0 found no refrence anywhere in the
install that /usr/doc existed... why?
>
> Petra> ... it seems to me to be ... sink or swim .... How about
> Petra> ... Heres a life jacket to get you through the first storm...
>
> You are great at analogies and generalizations, however, some
> specifics would really help. I would say Pikes "The UNIX programming
> Environment" or the LDP's basic books are the life jacket.
analogies are by nature rather vauge. agian I beg you to read my tech
proposal... (I'm hoping you will listen this time.)
>
> If you think that is not enough, I am sure people would be
> grateful for patches / concrete suggestions.
my patches would not be welcome... hell my ideas are aperantly not welcome
here.
>
> Petra> Oh, yeah now theres a good idea....
>
> >> We are indeed striving for ease of use, and for a geater
> >> degree of assistance in configuration of complex software.
>
> Petra> Examples? ... apt and?
>
> kernel-package. bindconfig. sendmailconfig. postinst scripts
> that set up complex packages. dwww. menu. the boot floppies
> package. http://localhost/doc/.
I was aware of most of these, good point for you... Now why can't these
type of help systems be available for install, or all major packages.
>
>
> >> Actually, I think you have no idea of what you are talking
> >> about.
>
> Petra> well, your entitled to that opinion.
>
> Until you give me any specifics, I have nothing to change my
> opinion.
I'm under the impression that short of out coding you in some
pre-schoolish contest Nothing will change your mind.
>
> >> You are somewhat like the management, who pick up nice, big
> >> sounding ideas all the time, but really have not thought through the
> >> nitty gritty dirty details.
>
> Petra> Oh, what a nice thought... a way out for you.... Come on. please try
> Petra> harder.
>
> Me try harder? What about you putting some substance to your
> accusations? How about you putting together *one* technical proposal?
> How about you putting together a single policy amendment? How about
> you doing anything but somplain in this forum?
I'm still stymeid by what you mean for tech proposal, but hopefully you
will be able to understand what I'm talking about ... I promise to use
small words.
>
> Failing that, how about pointing out one single specific
> improvement we can make? (Something more specific that we should use
> a GUI to set things up or that we should be user friendly)
problem with that is that the topic of genral user freindly ness is a BIG
idea, with lots of small parts... I don't have time to cover them all but
I will try.
>
>
> Petra> did I say that? ... or did you make that up. I think you made
> Petra> that up, because you assume that everyone who doesn't see it
> Petra> your way, must NEED and WANT a gui. all I'm saying is that a
> Petra> life jacket would be good for our users...
>
> In other words, you do not even think a GUI is what we need,
> you want another mindless platitude. "A life Jacket", indeed.
you stated in another e-mail that ad hominem attacks are something you try
to avoid, yet you just painted your self a liar. twisting my words to fit
your ideas of what YOU think I want, equates imo to calling me a liar to
my face. sound like your trying for personal attacks.
>
> >> What bugs? I find the GPL to work exactly as it should. We
> >> need a strong license that ptomotes and actively propogates free
> >> software, and the GPL does that.
>
> Petra> while I haven't memorised the entire gpl, what I have read leves me to
> Petra> think that there are a fewq "bugs" in it.
>
> Again, when asked for specifics, you balk. I think you are
> merely trolling.
the gpl has flaws that where explained to me by a lawyer friend of mine,
even I don't understand completly what he has said to me. I have asked him
to sumise the flaws he has found. and explain them in simple english. when
this happens I will let you know. your not the only one with time
constriants and belive it or not, some of us have to work instead of
spouting off about how someone has wrong ideas.
>
>
> >> I personally am against the certification prtograms, since in
> >> my experience none of them so far have been worth anything
> >> much.
>
> Petra> sounds like you couldn't pass one anyway.... well with your
> Petra> reading skills and all.
>
> Amusing. So far, there had been little ad hominem attacks in
> this discussion. It is my beief that resorting to personal attacks
> means that ones technical argument is weak.
well whats that say about you. even that statment right there is an attack
on me. don't hold yourself so high, you can't touch ground.
>
> Most of the people I have come across with the
> certification were people who lacked formal education in the area,
> and were indeeed, technicians, and lacked the ability to think beond
> the envelope.
I think that was probably the way the test is given. this certification
I'm thinking of would not just be a simple test, that one could study for.
rather it would be something more like a doctoral thesous defence.
>
> Petra> this whole kde stuff could be fixed with a simple clause to the gpl.
>
> Then that license would fail to do what the GPL does. I think
> I don't want a simple fix to the KDE problem; I thin it
> really hurts the free software community.
I would aggree. sorry kde was a bad example. leme think up another.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Particle man, Particle man
Doing the things a Particle can
Whats he like? Its not important
Particle man is he a dot, or is he a speck
When He's underwater does he get wet, or does the water get him instead?
- -Particle Man, by They Might Be Giants.
- -K
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