Dave Cinege Digest for today
>From list Thu Oct 23 17:46:32 PDT 1997
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From: "Dave Cinege" <dcinege@exit109.com>
To: "debian-policy@lists.debian.org" <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>,
"Ian Jackson" <ian@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 20:49:42 -0500
Reply-To: "Dave Cinege" <dcinege@exit109.com>
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Subject: Re: abandoning the rules of discourse
On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 00:49:56 +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
>Dave Cinege:
>> In other words Bruce needs a way to justify stifiling people that
>> endanger his complete domination of the Debian project.
>>
>> I can see no other reason for this policy as the very *RARE* times
>> their is any noise on the mailing lists it has been about that.
>
>Dave, please try not to be _quite_ so paranoid.
This is fact, not indulgent speculation.
>Bruce has no complete
>domination of the project. If you think you can do better then stand
>for the leadership. In any case, please be constructive. You might
>also find that becoming a developer would enhance your credibility.
Bruce now censors me at will on the lists when I bring up things he doesn't want
mentioned. (Notice I now need to post from several different accounts) He has
locked the enirty of major copyrights involvded in the project under SPI Inc. (of
which he owns), and it's pretty clear he's not going to just give that up if someone
else is elected grand poobah this year.
If this is not domination of the project could you please explain to me what is?
(I'm serious, please do.)
>To the rest of the list: We've been seeing a fair amount of noise
>recently, whether of the kind quoted above, or miscellaneous user
>questions to debian-devel (of which we've had a couple recently), or
>whatever.
People should get a topicality message when they subscribe.
>I propose that if we get much more we close the debian-policy and
>debian-devel lists to postings from non-developers. If there is
>demand we can create a new list where non-developers can discuss
>things, but I think the project needs us to be able to talk to each
>other in (relative) peace and quiet.
Then start a moderated list for critical matters. Giving someone the power to
decide who is a developer and who is not, and who can post and who can not, is
not what a free software project is about.
Again, those of you that want a closed development enviroment should look for
another distribution. That is not what Debian is about, and many of us will leave if
that changes.
BTW, doesn't deity have a private moderated list that just went through a minor
war? Wound up spilling over to devel and policy.....
>From list Fri Oct 24 08:15:05 PDT 1997
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From: "Dave Cinege" <dcinege@exit109.com>
To: "Joost Kooij" <kooij@mpn.cp.philips.com>
Cc: "Andreas Jellinghaus" <aj@dungeon.inka.de>,
"Bruce Perens" <bruce@pixar.com>,
"debian-policy@lists.debian.org" <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 11:16:40 -0500
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Subject: Re: abandoning the rules of discourse
On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:18:42 +0200 (CEST), Joost Kooij wrote:
>> In other words Bruce needs a way to justify stifiling people that endanger his
>> complete domination of the Debian project.
>>
>> I can see no other reason for this policy as the very *RARE* times their is any
>> noise on the mailing lists it has been about that.
>
>Dave, you have an funny tendency to be completely wrong and very right at
>the same time.
To prove my 'wrongness' could you please show me an instance where Bruce has
censored people, or even asked to censor people, that it did not have to do with
arguments over his control of the project?
>From list Fri Oct 24 08:17:57 PDT 1997
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From: "Dave Cinege" <dcinege@exit109.com>
To: "Bruce Perens" <bruce@pixar.com>,
"Kai Henningsen" <kaih@khms.westfalen.de>,
"paulwade@greenbush.com" <paulwade@greenbush.com>
Cc: "debian-policy@lists.debian.org" <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 11:21:27 -0500
Reply-To: "Dave Cinege" <dcinege@exit109.com>
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Subject: Re: on returning to our rules of discourse
On Thu, 23 Oct 97 23:26 PDT, Bruce Perens wrote:
>Think of it as an intelligence test. If someone isn't smart enough to
>be able to communicate any idea without using disrespectful language or
>obscentity, they are either:
>
>1. Not smart enough to be on the Debian project.
>
>2. Perhaps highly intelligent, but so lacking in interpersonal skills that
> it is not possible to function effectively as a member of a team. I think
> the _really_ intelligent people are capable of conquering this sort of
> problem, though it may take them years to do it.
3. Incapable of dealing with the consept of a free and open project, of which they
are a part of but DO NOT OWN.
>For me, the personal decision is clear. I don't want to work with the type
>1 people or the type 2 people. If Debian became full of them, I'd take the
>best of the team and continue the work elsewhere.
Why don't you get the jump on us and go do it now?
>From list Fri Oct 24 08:32:28 PDT 1997
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From: "Dave Cinege" <dcinege@exit109.com>
To: "Bruce Perens" <bruce@pixar.com>,
"debian-policy@lists.debian.org" <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>,
"Ian Jackson" <ian@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 11:36:08 -0500
Reply-To: "Dave Cinege" <dcinege@exit109.com>
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Subject: Re: abandoning the rules of discourse
On Thu, 23 Oct 97 23:33 PDT, Bruce Perens wrote:
>From: ian@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Ian Jackson)
>> You might also find that becoming a developer would enhance your credibility.
>
>There's a little trust issue standing in the way of that, I fear.
Let me clarify this for everyone. Bruce has made it clear that I, and some other
people in agreement with me are not welcome in HIS project, and that any work we
do for it will be rejected.
If Bruce did not hold the position he does, I would be maintaining at least one
normal package, several linux-router packages, as well as writing/maintaining the
crypto wrapper I mentioned in some crypto policy discussion last week. (That
everyone but Bruce seemed to think was a good idea.) You might also have
noticed my discussion in this poilcy suddenly dropped off, because Bruce began
filtering my mail again.
So Ian, have you finially seen the error in your theory? The project leader already
has the ability to effectivly banish people from the project. (IE make them
non-developers) Now you also wish to create a policy to only allow developers on
the lists. By what critria and who decides WHO is a developer? Things like this
should not even be brought up in a FREE software project....
How you've been able to justify Bruce's actions thus far I'd like to know. (Seeing
as how you yourself wish to take his position)
--
Can you get your operating system fixed when you need it?
Linux - the supportable operating system. http://www.debian.org/support.html
Bruce Perens K6BP bruce@debian.org NEW PHONE NUMBER: 510-620-3502
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