Re: Unteralterbach visual novel (was: Re: Introduction)
Bas Wijnen <wijnen@debian.org> writes:
> On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 12:42:52PM +0100, Nils Dagsson Moskopp wrote:
>> > please keep debian-devel-games@lists.debian.org in the loop.
>> >
>> > On Tue, Mar 04, 2014 at 08:39:20PM +0100, Mateusz Jończyk wrote:
>> >> 2014-03-03 18:37 GMT+01:00 Nils Dagsson Moskopp <nils@dieweltistgarnichtso.net>:
>> As far as I understand it, in Germany, for a text / recording / drawing
>> to be a criminal matter, it must depict actual abuse – meaning a child
>> has to be abused for the document to be created.
>
> On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 04:48:06PM +0100, Iwan Gabovitch wrote:
>> cartoon pornography depicting minors is illegal in Canada, South
>> Africa, South Korea, Sweden, the United Kingdom, and the Philippines.
>
> AFAIK the Netherlands belongs in that list, too. But I'm by no means an
> expert on it.
>
> However, this has no effect on the discussion: the parts that are
> illegal in those countries can be hidden by the game, so it will be very
> easy to remove them from the source package, and distribute only the
> rest (packaging them in a separate external package might be possible,
> but I would spare the trouble, really). The images of child abuse are
> entirely optional, and the the game is very well playable without them.
This is only true if textual content of the game is not also forbidden.
>> Off-topic: Does this mean that the stereotypical hentai comics that
>> commonly depict rape, child abuse, dismemberment etc. are not legal to
>> posess in NL as well?
>
> AFAIK (but IANAL) for graphics, only child abuse is forbidden. Any
> other drawings of criminal acts are not a problem. I think the idea was
> to make digitally composited movies illegal, where the viewer might
> think that actual abuse happened. The reason was that then the defense
> of "this movie wasn't real" doesn't lead to the need to investigate if
> that is true. However, the law is written in a way that even cartoons
> are illegal.
Odd – we had the same issue in Germany, with the same rationale.
>> > - With only one single exception (which may well turn the whole story
>> > around eventually, but didn't so far), _ALL_ children in the game (all
>> > of them girls) use every opportunity they get to exclaim how much they
>> > like sex.
>>
>> I think this happens only on game paths where the protagonist is a
>> pedophile.
>
> Well, in that case, it's really easy to become one. ;-) After your
> description, I think my choice at Mohammed's place might have triggered
> it. But there really wasn't a "good" choice IMO. Bernd would be a
> killer (and probably die at the hands of the guard as well), be killed
> without doing anything, or allow child abuse to happen. I tried all
> options, but in all cases the next thing that happened was that he woke
> up from the dream. I assumed my choice didn't have a lot of effect, so
> I just continued. I think the last option I tried was to allow the
> abuse, so that must have marked him as a pedophile.
I actually laughed when reading that. Yes, that probably was it. Do
other games you play have a more direct relation between cause and
effect?
> Later, when freeing the twins, I could either leave them locked up, or
> trigger abuse and free them. I wanted to reject the abuse, but free
> them anyway, but that wasn't an option.
Well, they are locked up by their mother … so they are not abused.
It surprises me how well it seems to work to give the player two bad
choices. I might use that approach in my own games to create despair.
> Anyway, from your description it seems that the other paths are
> significantly less bad in that respect.
If you ever play the game again, choose “kann ich auch etwas strammer
sein” (or similar) when talking to the first woman. This triggers a sex
scene with her, after that scene the protagonist is most certainly not a
pedophile. The villagers will still be obsessed with protecting the
children, though.
>> > - The protagonist starts out as hating the abusers and going after them,
>> > but gets confused when he finds out the girls are doing it all by
>> > themselves. The player gets to decide how to handle this confusion,
>> > but the option of becoming an abuser is hard (but not impossible) to
>> > avoid.
>>
>> Most people I know had it the other way around and it did take them
>> multiple tries to get to the “pedophile” path even when trying.
>
> Interesting. In that case it is just unpredictable.
We will see how it is handled as soon as we have source code.
>> A player feeling that abuse is inevitable might mirror the dissociative
>> feelings of an actual abuser feeling guilt and regret – it seems to be
>> an illusion, since as far as I have played there is always a way out.
>
> Yes, but sometimes it takes several save and load cycles; it's not
> always obvious which choice leads to abuse. And as I wrote above, the
> alternative isn't always what I would want either. But it could be that
> the path I was on was just filled with it, and other paths aren't.
If the player is considered a pedophile, there are opportunities for
abuse at every corner. Similar to other games, where you have a gun.
The only game I know that challenges that is Aquaria. After acquiring
the skill to throw energy balls, most players shoot everything they can
see. This triggers a monologue from the – usually silent – protagonist
about how powerful she feels when killing weaker creatures. Ouch.
--
Nils Dagsson Moskopp // erlehmann
<http://dieweltistgarnichtso.net>
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