/* * Please direct replies to -boot, please keep me Cc'd as I am not * subscribed to that list, thankyou. * * ObDevelAnnounce: I want this to reach all developers so they are at * least aware of the criticisms raised. Discussion from this point on * should happen in -boot, not -devel-announce for obvious reasons. * * Hiya Bill, Cc'ing you so you know that your peeves have been heard. */ Found someplace, probably irc I think though I could be wrong: http://linuxtoday.com/stories/8794.html Okay, I agree with many of the criticisms found herein and I want to selfishly bring attention to the pet peeves I have about the current installation while people on -boot are allegedly revamping the whole boot and install process. From here on the indented stuff will be pasted from lynx and the non-indented stuff will be my comments. * All is now ready to install the kernel and necessary modules, and I'm presented with a myriad of choices of media and installation options. I, obviously, choose CD-ROM, tell the program where the CD-ROM is (a strange step considering the program was RUN from the CD-ROM, but there you go) and things whir away. Could this possibly be detected, hmm? I mean at least it could look for the obvious choices like cdrom. You can at least with 2.2 kernels get it to tell you which drives are cdroms and which are hard drives, etc. It would not be unreasonable to bring up the choices and make the most likely candidate the default. Also, selecting the location of the cdrom.. This SHOULD be able to be automated now or the number of choices offered seriously limited to those devices that really and truly are cdroms. If it can be done it'd be nice for it to know that the device booted was in fact one of the cdroms in the system and pick it as the default cdrom, possibly not bothering to prompt for a drive in that case. Of course that requires somehow being able to figure out which device got booted somehow and that's not something I know how to figure out or even if it can be figured out. If you know PLEASE email me privately, I'd like to talk to you. I'm gonna guess that all of this would be much easier with devfs, but then I'm a major devfs advocate considering how much it makes things easier... (all right, put the tulips DOWN (you had to be at LWE to understand)) [complaints regarding interactive package installations] We're all quite aware of these and we know it should get fixed. It's getting fixed, slowly but surely, so I won't go into it here. * First things first, get the net connection going. That's easy, of course, just run ppp-config. I run ppp-config, save the configuration file, run pon. (I have, of course, given my user account the correct permissions to do so; in Debian this means adding myself to the `dip' group. ILA[*].) The modem clicks, but doesn't dial out. Error messages in the logs are unhelpful. Granted there's probably not much we could have done differently that would prevent Bill's problem which turned out to be an onboard serial port conflicting with the modem or something like that. Where to go for documentation could have been better of course, and I'd like to believe wvdial would probably have had better luck with figuring things out. When we have kernel PnP his problem may go away entirely. In any event my peeve is that the default PPP setup tools all suck. => Could we possibly consider wvdial as the default? Great little tool, very nifty, works in more than 90% of cases and makes the whole process a breeze without having to fight with chat or slattach or anything of the sort, and it finds and figures out info about your modem too. These things impress people coming from windoze and they really do make PPP a whole lot easier to set up. And wvdial is far more reliable than even my wonderful and paranoid chatscript. * I realize I should probably set up email, so I quickly setup fetchmail and have it run. Problem: fetchmail fetches and hands it off the the local mail system, but it doesn't deliver. I recall seeing some discussion of this problem on the Debian-user list, so I fire up lynx and check the archives for "exim fetchmail" and discover I need to have localhost inserted in the appropriate part of exim.conf. Once inserted, mail starts being delivered. Can we please put an updated exim into stable that fixes this for r3 or the "updated" slink release joeyh was talking about? This is really almost always wanted anyway and is certainly a sensible default. Installation of both Linux and Windows 98 had their good, bad, and ugly points. Getting the installation started for Windows 98 was ridiculous, while some of the finer points of the Debian GNU/Linux install were flawed - having to approve configuration questions for hundreds of programs during installation is, in my opinion, not a good way to do things. I certainly wouldn't expect a non-savvy person to be able to install either successfully. I'd tend to agree. The point is that people don't install windoze, system vendors do. Fortunately some system vendors are starting to install Linux at long last. This is A Good Thing. We are planning to get rid of the installation question nightmare soon. Almost everything could have a reasonable set of defaults and packages will be updated to use them when installed once the configuration tools are ready---joeyh is one of the people working on this. Noteworthy is that Corel and Storm both have Debian-based distributions in the works which will not ask all these stupid questions. => On the one hand, they probably wouldn't have been able to get the Windows 98 installation STARTED, while the Debian installation required several steps that required a great deal of background knowledge (e.g., knowing that the server would have to be upgraded to support the video card being used and knowing where to get the appropriate files, knowing where to look for mail delivery solution, etc.) Both systems required significant knowledge about the tasks being accomplished. We're also discussing an update of slink for several of the core packages that need it (kernels and X included) for people in your boat to minimize at least some of that needed background information. Perhaps the install instructions should include things like where to go for help and how to get there? All right people, you've read the complaints and my opinions of them. What say you, the rest of the developers? Is at least some of this fixable in the slink update should that happen? How about potato? What has to wait till after potato? -- Joseph Carter <email@example.com> Debian GNU/Linux developer GnuPG: 2048g/3F9C2A43 - 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3 PGP 2.6: 2048R/50BDA0ED - E8 D6 84 81 E3 A8 BB 77 8E E2 29 96 C9 44 5F BE -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <netgod> is it me, or is Knghtbrd snoring? <joeyh> they killed knghtbrd! <netgod> Kysh: wichert, gecko, joeyh, and I are in a room trying to ignore Knghtbrd <Kysh> netgod: Knghtbrd is hard to ignore.
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