Re: let's etch a common way of using debtags for CDDs and beyond!
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On 18-05-2005 01:25, Sergio Talens-Oliag wrote:
> I've read all your mail and I don't see why it has to be based on debtags. I
> see the interest on debtags as a simple and powerful way to categorize
> packages, but what is the advantage of using debtags instead of the
> description file I've proposed?
>
> I feel that the contol-like syntax is easier to use by developers, as they
> are familiar with it and, unless I'm missing something, it is much easier to
> declare package dependencies using the control file format (it has the same
> syntax that the rest of the Debian system uses).
Package dependencies are in some situations too strict.
Example: Woody-based Skolelinux depends on KDE 2.x packages, so breaks
if applied to Sarge.
If instead Skolelinux had been able to (and interested in) using a
debtags approach instead, they could have expressed dependency on "all
official Debian packages tagged as suite::kde".
What actually happened was that the Skolelinux metapackage(s) got
adopted as official Debian packages, but then caused problems shifting
to newer KDE because it depended on the old KDE packages. The Skolelinux
metapackage(s) then was changed to only recommend instead of depend, but
that only avoids the metapackage breaking other parts of Debian, the
metapackage itself is still practically broken until upgraded.
>>Then, there is also FAI (http://www.informatik.uni-koeln.de/fai/), which a.)
>>works on the CDDs _and_ local admin "tweak level" and b.) does much more: FAI
>>is a complete framework which covers all three aspects of CDD creation
>>mentioned above as FAI was created as a tool for local admins to manage a
>>specific (to the needs of a local admin) system infrastructure.
>>
>>With FAI it's possible to tweak packages (using debconf, cfengine and
>>traditional custom-made scripting), FAI also provides a class concept (which
>>is used for selecting packages and configuration and much more), means to
>>select packages and to create a installation media. So currently FAI is not
>>really a complement to CDD but a different, standalone tool.
>
>
> I already said that I was going to look at FAI but have not had the time to
> do it and nobody on the CDD Dev Camp had experience with it, I promise I'll
> take a look at it before continuing the work on the cddtk; I would be happy
> to learn that I can use FAI for the cdd toolkit and avoid writting new code,
> it's a lot faster to do.
FAI is primarily a tool to force-autoinstall a Debian system using
netbooting into an NFS root of installation routines. It has grown
rather complex, and some parts of it is useful also without the full
network setup of FAI.
FAI classes can be seen as "tagging" for the installation process.
Example: A complete FAI installation is started with the
fai-classes="686 ESD ALSA GRUB" in the environment (either set in DHCP,
at a net-enabled GRUB or at a prompt during startup), causing the following:
* The packages libesd-alsa0 (instead of the non-ALSA variant),
libsdl1.2debian-esd (instead of the OSS variant), libc6-i686 and
alsa-modules-2.4-686 are included in the install
* Configurations are tweaked to install GRUB in the MBR, probe for and
enable relevant ALSA drivers and diable the annoying hotplug probing at
each bootup), Use Esound by default both in KDE, GNOME and whatever
other desktop system is installed (instead of aRts, NAS and other
favorites of each desktop system).
The FAI package selection could benefit from debtags. And both debtags
"facets" and FAI "classes" could benefit from using a shared namespace
(if I understand the term "namespace" correctly).
CDDs could benefit from the FAI classes-based cfengine (and other)
scripts being packaged in a separate package, and the tweaks needed by
each CDD slowly added to that package.
What CDDs and FAI have realized by now but Debian not yet have good
support for is distro-wide defaults like choice of sound daemon. If CDDs
and FAI join forces in maintaining what was initially my plan with the
"tweaks" Alioth project (which I have been all too slow at starting), we
can help the package maintainers and Debian in general to see what areas
needs most unofficial tweaking and thus is in most need of official
support through debconf or other means.
The best organized and largest pool of configuration tweaking scripts to
use as common base is IMHO the one found in FAI - and hopefully soon
provided in a separate Debian package not depending on netbootable
kernel, NFS and other stuff required to setup a fullblown FAI environment.
- Jonas
- --
* Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt
* Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
- Enden er nær: http://www.shibumi.org/eoti.htm
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