Re: Bug#573745: Things have changed significantly for the better
Hi Scott and others.
On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 19:45, Scott Kitterman <scott@kitterman.com> wrote:
> Things are quite different now than they were 9 months ago when I got involved.
> They are significantly different now than when this bug was filed.
>
> Other than the question of when to make the initial upload of a new version of
> the Python interpreter to Unstable, most of the issues at the core of this
> request have to do with maintenance of the core Python system in Debian and
> Python policy. These are from python-defaults and python3-defaults. Both of
> these packages are now maintained by three DDs in a public VCS.
>
> I agree with the idea that maintenance of the interpreter packages should be
> broadened, but I think that the defaults packages which control
> default/supported versions and provide the Debian Python policy are the most
> important.
Indeed that changes a lot, and for the best, but we're not done yet, IMO.
> I believe it is fair to state that more has been done to improve the technical
> state of Python in Debian in the last 9 months than in the previous 4 years.
But it is also fair to state that this progress was possible mainly
thanks to you, Piotr, and then to the debian-python community, and
AFAICS in very minimal part (none?) from Matthias. Why is he still in
a control position?
> We are having a good discussion in the Debian Python community around what the
> Debian System for Python 3 will look like. No one is imposing anything (look
> at the recent archives of debian-python for the discussion).
Sure, and doko took part in exactly zero discussions; is he sending
his lieutenants in exploration and then have them report back to him
and so decide what to do? </sarcasm> Why is he still in a control
position?
> The history of Python in Debian is what it is, but I don't think that
> restructuring maintainership would solve any problems that we are actually
> having right now.
>
> It seems to me that this request has evolved significantly. Initially it was
> about broadening maintainership. Now that this is happening, it seems to be
> just about getting doko fired.
Whatever the two, but I think that broadening the maintainership and
keeps doko in, required in him to change his behavior; if that won't
change, I don't know what other solutions there can be.
> I find that doko is perfectly willing to have
> reasonable discussions with people who are trying to work with him. I don't
> find it a bit surprising that he doesn't place a priority on dealing with
> people who are not.
Honestly? I think he is fine to have conversation with people that
will "obey" to most of his will, and don't critics too much. When
something differentiate from his thought he simply shut up, and
continue on his way without listening. That Is The Problem. For
example, and for the hundredth time, why he didn't write A SINGLE WORD
here?
> He's not always as responsive as I would like, but I'm
> not always as responsive as others would like either. None of us has
> unlimited time.
>
> As far as the Ubuntu versus Debian question, if you look at the python2.6
> history you will see that back in April doko switched back to having Debian
> uploads lead Ubuntu uploads and since then has uploaded python2.6 to Debian 9
> times.
>
> Currently the package is maintained in Debian and then merged with
> minor changes in Ubuntu. This is another aspect of the original complaint
> that is, in my opinion, no longer valid (personally, I don't understand how
> one can simultaneously exult Debian as being more careful and having higher
> quality standards than Ubuntu and complain that everything that's in Ubuntu
> should also be in Debian at the same time, but regardless, it's OBE).
sure, but is he really want to work first in Debian or instead
something like "let's fake that: I need to upload python2.6 to Ubuntu
so I let other pretend I care for Debian, I upload there first and
then I sync in Ubuntu where I really need the package". Also do you
call the last rushed uploads "up to the Debian quality"? Several times
his package failed *even* to install...
> P.S. I am not subscribed to this bug, so if you want further comments from
> me, please cc me.
Done
Regards,
--
Sandro Tosi (aka morph, morpheus, matrixhasu)
My website: http://matrixhasu.altervista.org/
Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi
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