Ok, so I'm tired... they are of course supposed to be created dynamically. Still... something is wrong with the default install if they are not, I guess. -- David N. Welton Consulting: http://www.dedasys.com/ Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/ Free Software: http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/ Apache Tcl: http://tcl.apache.org/