Re: Re Debian Pure Blend
Hi Bryan,
I've bounced your mail do debian-blends list.
Am Mon, Mar 27, 2023 at 09:40:43PM -0500 schrieb Bryan Hammond:
> Hi Andreas
>
> I did as you suggested, and read almost all of the posts in
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-nonprofit/ I read slowly so it took a
> while. Unless it was just that the key programmers who were involved from
> 2003 to sometime in 2006 just got too busy with other work to see it
> through, I don't know why it was dropped. In Feb 2007 there were several
> posts about dropping that list, all agreeing with that, but several
> expressing some disappointment that it hadn't worked out. Benjamin Mako Hill
> wrote "I would love to see this project revived, but..." I've copied names
> and email addresses for those who I think were most into the project, but
> before emailing to see if they'd consider reviving it, I'm wondering:
>
> * when I finish a draft of my nonprofit peer-peer software proposal,
> Where should I post it? To the general mailing list for
> submissions?______ debian-blends@lists.debian.org, which would be my
> preference since more people might read and consider it, or
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-nonprofit/ *______*
IMHO debian-nonprofit is more appropriate - may be you use that
list and keep debian-blends in CC.
> * As is, it starts with a minor intro to the software's use, then
> over half a page makes the case as to WHY I think it is extremely
> urgent to try to motivate the NGOs (and I include co-ops and unions)
> of the world to communicate and cooperate to an unprecedented degree
> - first among themselves, then in a coordinated and collective
> outreach to the general public; then the HOW/WHAT - I suggest some
> things I hope the software can help them accomplish. I'm thinking
> that sequence - 1) a minor intro, then 2) the "WHY"s of its urgency
> due to worsening current world conditions, then 3) most "HOW and
> WHAT" details following - would perhaps motivate more programmers to
> consider, and conclude that it would be a very urgent and timely
> Debian project worth working on. However, from something you wrote
> previously, I'm wondering if you think I should put all the WHAT
> details I'm advocating first, followed by the WHY's ?________
> * Such a Pure Blend could not only serve that massive communication
> process better than anything else I can think of, but give NGOs,
> Co-ops, activist groups in general an extra incentive to make the
> switch from Windows to Debian
> * BTW my proposal, as is, is about 3-4 pages of 12 point text, with
> add'l 2 pages of Endnotes (mainly links, and a few quotes). Is that
> too big to submit to a mailing list?_____
I think its best to put it online somewhere and link to its location.
> There is just one more new paragraph, inserted about 1 screen down from
> here.
>
> Thanks for any help with this,
To say the truth I do not feel in the position to provide any measurable
help for your project.
Kind regards
Andreas.
> Bryan
>
>
>
> On 2023-03-10 00:52, Andreas Tille wrote:
> > Hi Bryan,
> >
> > Am Thu, Mar 09, 2023 at 12:24:21PM -0600 schrieb Bryan Hammond:
> > Hi Andreas
> >
> > Thanks Very much for that prompt reply!
> > You have my permission to post/relay my email to that
> > "debian-blends@lists.debian.org' list. *In fact, please do relay it for me.*
> >
> > Though I've been using a computer and email extensively since Jan 87, I've
> > never used a mailing list - and don't know how, yet. I'll learn soon, but
> > that email is urgent and I think its great that you're going to post it
> > where it will probably come to the attention to the most appropriate people
> > on the planet.
> > Well, using a mailing list ist simple: You write to that mailing list
> > address. You can find the mailing list archive here:
> > https://lists.debian.org/debian-blends/
> >
> > > Thank you, and the many others, who create these Debian Pure Blends - and
> > > Debian itself. Its the best example of international activist cooperation
> > > and collaboration that I know of! I just hope the CSOs/NGOs whom this blend
> > > would be for will set as good an example, by making prompt and holistic use
> > > of it.
> > How can you promise that people working in CSOs/NGOs will make prompt
> > and holistic use? Do you have some grip on a certain amount of such
> > organisations to replace their current software setup by something else?
> I can't be sure that many NGOs, co-ops, unions, activist orgs in general,
> will make that software switch, BUT I'm hoping that by: 1) giving a summary
> of the rapidly deteriorating world conditions - and backing it up with links
> to very credible people emphasizing the urgency of dealing with the
> problems, and 2) links that strongly make the case that the prevailing
> neoliberal corporate/investor-serving governments are NOT going to act
> quickly enough - if at all, and 3) therefore humanity's best hope is for the
> whole spectrum of Caring activists of the world to unite on a grand
> unprecedented scale ASAP, and collectively do what has to be done... and 4)
> in that context make the case there is little - if anything - that could
> better help those activists unite on the scale they must, as rapidly as they
> must - than software that simplifies their communicating, planning,
> cooperating, collaborating, and coordinating to do so. In my opinion a
> Debian Pure Blend can best serve those, and more, purposes.
> >
> > I'm afraid you have a too optimistic illusion how Free Software works
> > that there is someone sitting down for coding with the only goal to make
> > other people happy - but see below for my more detailed answer. ;-)
> > > On 2023-03-09 11:46, Andreas Tille wrote:
> > > > Hi Bryan,
> > > >
> > > > just a "warning": We have the mailing list
> > > > debian-blends@lists.debian.org where mails like this are perfectly
> > > > on topic. I have the very bad habit to violate netiquette and bounce
> > > > such private mails to public lists to give my answer in public where
> > > > it belongs to.
> > > >
> > > > So either please resent your mail to the mailing list (there is no
> > > > need to subscribe this pretty low volume list - but in case you are
> > > > not subscribed just add a note and ask people to keep you in CC which
> > > > is not default) or give me permission to answer right in public
> > > > quoting you.
> > > >
> > > > Next time I'll do so without warning. ;-)
> > > >
> > > > Thanks a lot for your interest in Debian Pure Blends
> > > >
> > > > Andreas.
> > I just keep my first answer here as information how I usually dealThanks for any help with this,
> >
> > Bryan
> > with e-mails sent to my private address if its about team topics.
> >
> > > > Am Thu, Mar 09, 2023 at 11:37:43AM -0600 schrieb Bryan Hammond:
> > > > > Hello Andreas
> > > > >
> > > > > Since you seem to be the key author of the Pure Blends Manual, I've sent
> > > > > this to you, hoping you will discuss it with the appropriate Debian
> > > > > developers.
> > As a general note: Please always try to reach a team for your own
> > profit. The person you have in mind could be on vaccation, overly busy,
> > not interested any more, whatever.
> >
> > > > > What I’m hoping is that a “Debian Pure Blend” will be created to serve the
> > > > > activists of the world, who on the common ground of compassion and
> > > > > intelligence, are working to do the best they can - in whatever ways - to
> > > > > help create viable alternative systems based on cooperation. The Pure Blend
> > > > > would be designed *specifically to enable any coalition of well-known and
> > > > > trusted CSO's/NGOs*, in any city - who are willing to collectively create a
> > > > > node for the use of the whole spectrum of activist orgs. in that city - to
> > > > > quickly become part of a local to global P2P mega network. This Pure Blend
> > > > > would be able to do as many as possible of the things those NGOs would
> > > > > collectively want to do. The software would also be designed so that when
> > > > > they are ready, they can securely connect with other nodes/cities who have
> > > > > reached the point they too are ready to connect with other nodes.
> > This project existed and had its own mailing list:
> >
> > https://lists.debian.org/debian-nonprofit/
> >
> > Please note the '[dead list]' comment. The Blend that was started at a
> > time when the concept was known as "Debian Custom Distributions" (we
> > dropped this name since it was to confusing) was named Debian NGO.
> >
> > > > > Though it wouldn't be my decision to make, ideally creation of this Pure
> > > > > Blend would be a collaborative effort between Debian developers, and a broad
> > > > > spectrum of trusted activist individuals and NGO leadership - with the
> > > > > collective expertise to proceed comprehensively and wisely. At first it
> > > > > should probably only be securely distributed to their NGO counterparts
> > > > > around the world. After a secure local to global P2P network of these nodes
> > > > > is reliably functional, the general membership of any member NGOs would be
> > > > > able to connect to their local node, and through it to others of their
> > > > > choice. They could quickly zero in on who has or needs what - and share
> > > > > whatever info they please as securely and quickly as possible - locally,
> > > > > nationally, and/or inter-nationally. Maybe at that point it wouldn’t matter
> > > > > if this Pure Blend were made available to the general public.
> > > > >
> > > > > Doing this will probably give humanity its best chance to Unite to an
> > > > > unprecedented degree, and enable a just transition to a viable local to
> > > > > global system of systems - based on compassion and intelligence - and
> > > > > capable of surviving on a habitable, and still beautiful, planet. It will
> > > > > also be the biggest boost to GNU/Linux software that there has yet been.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've written a more detailed proposal, just under 3 pages, with about 3
> > > > > pages of endnotes - links to quotes and interviews mainly - that emphasize
> > > > > the urgent need for the Caring People of Earth to work together as never
> > > > > before, and ASAP.
> > Where did you wrote this. Do you have some link?
> >
> > > > > There may be points therein that could be of practical
> > > > > use to a Debian team interested in developing a Pure Blends such as
> > > > > described above. The following interview with Noam Chomsky emphasizes the
> > > > > urgency.
> > > > > Noam Chomsky: “We’re approaching the most dangerous point in human history”
> > > > > - New Statesman<https://www.newstatesman.com/encounter/2022/04/noam-chomsky-were-approaching-the-most-dangerous-point-in-human-history>
> > > > >
> > > > > Attached are scans of a magazine I founded in Winnipeg, Manitoba in 1988.
> > > > > Though it was only published for a few years, I'm hoping that a similar
> > > > > magazine - with sections for international, national, provincial/state,
> > > > > city, and perhaps distinct communities within a city - will become one of
> > > > > the projects of all such city nodes, once they are ready to make collective
> > > > > outreach to the general public. They could feature a lot of "big names"
> > > > > respected by a broad spectrum of society. Life on Earth has probably
> > > > > deteriorated enough that finally, a majority of people around the world will
> > > > > be eager to participate in such a grand collective effort.
> > I admit I personally subscribe to all your points. On the other hand
> > I'm afraid we will not save the world by just creating a Blend for NGOs.
> >
> > > > > I'm not a programmer, but hope I may be useful as a catalyst to help kindle
> > > > > this. I recently posted these ideas in the FSF's Associate Member Forum.
> > Now we come to the weak part of your proposal and you possibly too
> > optimistic view on how Free Software works. In payed software business
> > (no matter under what license this software might be distributed) there
> > is some mind with money that is handed over to programmers who just
> > realise these ideas. You seem to imagine there is a wide resource of
> > gifted programmers that are just waiting for this mind to speak out
> > great ideas and than these programmers start working on this task.
> >
> > First of all: Even in the payed programming the programmer needs a real
> > specication of the job. I can't see this in your mail (except for the
> > hint to a more detailed proposal).
> >
> > But Debian (and probably the whole software world) works differently.
> > In the beginning a person has some idea or need, turns it into code and
> > publishes this code to provide some solution to people with similar
> > needs hoping some of these people will contribute enhancements. In
> > Debian we call this principle "Do-O-cracy": Those who do the work decide
> > what finally gets done.
> >
> > So the first and most important step in getting some free software
> > solution started is that someone provides some sensible solution or at
> > least something that is promising in some direction and *than* find
> > people who have the same problem and contribute to this solution.
> >
> > Your mail boils down to: I believe in you (which is a great compliment
> > - thank you for this) and now please do something (which does not work).
> >
> > The good news is that probably lots of puzzle stones of what you are
> > seeking for exists and crafting a Blend is just joining those puzzle
> > stones to the image you have in mind. But its your task (may be by
> > the help of someone who is comfortable with the technical background)
> > to pick those puzzle stones and join them. May be your mail here on
> > this list will help finding someone. I promise to help you (and your
> > small crew you might find) with technical **details**. But I do not
> > have any spare minute to start things from scratch.
> >
> > The founder of Debian NGO in 2003 was Benjamin Mako Hill. You can find
> > his e-mail address and the names of other contributors / interested
> > persons in the mailing list archive. You might consider re-vitalising
> > the old mailing list. And may be you read this mailing list archive[2]
> > first to find some clue what might have been the reason that people
> > did not followed that project idea from about 20 years ago to make sure
> > the mistakes made at this time will not be repeated in future.
> >
> > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > Bryan Hammond
> > Hope this helps
> > Andreas.
> >
> > [1]https://communitywiki.org/wiki/DoOcracy
> > [2]https://lists.debian.org/debian-nonprofit/
> >
--
http://fam-tille.de
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