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Re: Back to RedHat



[this is not a flame or rant, even though it will seem to be]

Paul Slootman <paul@wau.mis.ah.nl> wrote:

> On Wed 23 Sep 1998, Bob McElrath wrote:

[...]

> > and need to run it, you have no idea where it got run or how it was called. 
> > (i.e. configuring keyboard -- my keyboard went all goofy like it was
> > remapped or something, and I couldn't for the life of me figure out how to
> > fix it, or how to bring up that dialog box in the installation that chose
> > the keyboard, or what that script did to select the keyboard)  Other things
> > in this category are /etc/alternatives, moving X11 config to /etc/X11,
> > window manager menu structures (hook?)

I hate (don't like) RH because all the stupid locations of there init/"other"
scripts.

It just is one of the differences in the systems... RH thinks there way is "The
Right Way" (probably tm), SlackWare have there, which they think is "The Right
Way To Go" (probably tm to :), and we, Debian have our way...

I was thought Linux/UNIX on a old a.out SlackWare about 3 years ago, and I loved
there way... I really had some bad language to say about Debian's init scripting
when we first 'forced' to switch (it's hell of a time to maintain a SW system,
it's almost impossible to upgrade, without reverting to re-installations), but
after a little while, when I got used to it, I'd loved it, because it gave me
_MUCH_ grater freedom to turn on and off specific daemons...

> > 2) Few (if any) duplicate functionality packages.  For instance, Debian
> > comes with like 7 mail-delivery-agents.  What's with that?  To a new user,
> > it's not clear which is best, and at times, even that you can only choose

Now this point was the one that really got me! DIVERSITY!!

If you don't like DIVERSITY, freedom of choice, maybe you should stick with M$?
They will ram there OS down your trough, and you don't have any thing to say
about that.

This is the thing that _REALLY_ makes me a Debian follower. I _HATE_ it (!!!!)
when someone tries to do the choice for me. I'm in charge over my machine(s), I
decide! No one is going to tell me what mail-server/news-server/whatever-server
to use! Give me a list to choose from, and to try out, so that _I_ can decide
which is best for me.

> > *one*.  Also, there are 3 different mutually exclusive ways to install the
> > gtk libs.  (???)

So? It's gets installed, right? Isn't that what you wanted? Why should it matter
that it can be installed in '3 different mutually exclusive ways'? 

> > 3) Whittle down the number of packages.  At last count the main tree had
> > 1713 packages in it.  It takes many hours to sift through that list and
> > decide what to install.  And after doing so, you simply can't remember all
> > the "neato" little things you installed.  I saw mention recently of trying
> > to keep up with the intel side of .deb's.  Forget about it.  Their community
> > is much larger and they will always churn out new stuff faster than us.  Go
> > for a smaller set of stable packages instead of the latest whiz-bang stuff.

Ahh... Here it is again... I think I've said enough about this issue... Use M$
if you don't like freedom of choice... Even RH/SW have a lot of packages.

> It's true that the
> large number of packages makes the selection process a bit painful, but
> the preselection stuff helps.

I must agree here, 'a bit painful', but I think that's an cheap thing to pay, to
get the DIVERSITY!

> > 4) Get rid of beta software!  This includes WindowMaker, Gnome, etc.

Why? I like to try out the 'latest of the greatest' (even though I've got bitten
some times :). This is the same thing as point 2 and 3. Let people decide for
them self, don't ram it down there through!

> > 5) In order to help users see and play with the software on their system,
> > set up some kind of way to automagically add installed software to window
> > manager menus so they can run it.  (*all* window managers...)
> 
> Not all window managers (can) support this; perhaps it should be made
> clearer in the description of the window managers which ones do.

This is being done in (most ?) of the WM's, and we are working on making the whole
system being easier to install, but we are volonteres, we have life (I'm not sure
what that means, but... :) beyond Debian (at least most of us have jobs that is
demanding to).

> > 6) dselect needs a major overhaul.  Its key mappings are non-intuitive and
> 
> You should take a look at apt.

As he said, this is also worked on. The apt crew have done quite a nice piece of
software here, and it's being continusly improved...

> > conflict with other popular packages (i.e. '-' going back a page in more,
> > and the + key turns into the * symbol, while all other keys match symbols).
> > It doesn't show you that a package has dependencies until after you try to
> > install it (which takes time, and is distracting to switch screens).  Show
> > (unresolved) dependencies on the same screen that is used to select
> > packages.  The way it constantly brings up the help screen is a *major*
> > pain.  How about a mode to look at *only* what is currently installed, so
> > that you can remove things?

DSelect isn't maintained any more, we are switching (albeit slowly) to use apt,
which (will) have both a X, Console and CLI (Command Line Interface) interface,
so that it will suite anyone. I prefer the CLI way, but that might not what you
want, and someone else might prefer the X way. This should make anyone/everyone
happy...

-- 
-- Microsoft: Do less with more.   UNIX on Intel: Do more with less. --
 Turbo     __ _     Debian GNU     Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just 
 ^^^^^    / /(_)_ __  _   ___  __  selective about who its friends are 
         / / | | '_ \| | | \ \/ /          Live long and prosper
  _ /// / /__| | | | | |_| |>  <  Turbo Fredriksson    turbo@tripnet.se
  \\\/  \____/_|_| |_|\__,_/_/\_\ Surrey/B.C./Canada      (604)572-3523
Debian Certified Linux Developer  PGP#788CD1A9   www5.tripnet.se/~turbo
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