Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Wed 07 Feb 2024 at 06:58:39 (+0100), hw wrote:
> On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 21:43 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> > On Tue 06 Feb 2024 at 11:28:11 (+0100), hw wrote:
> > > [...]
> > > I'm talking about wayland all the time; you brought Xorg up instead.
> >
> > If that concerned you unduly, you could have put that in the Subject
> > line.
>
> It doesn't concern me.
>
> > It's also obvious that "change the keyboard layout" is ambiguous,
> > and you didn't intend to mean switching between two layouts.
>
> It's not at all obvious, and it's not really ambiguous. Changing the
> keyboard layout has always been about changing the keybaord layout and
> never about switching between different keyboards or between different
> layouts. That only came up much later when such a feature was added
> to some so-called desktop environments, and it's a very short sighted
> feature since it omits a way of changing they keyboard layouts, which
> is a far more important feature.
It seems quite important when you're used to typing in more than
one language, and want your layout to match what you're used to.
> > > [...]
> > My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My
> > old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems
> > reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988.
>
> I can see USB keyboards identifying themselves, but keyboards with
> PS/2 or DIN connectors? How does your keyboard from 1988 connect?
PS/2. IIRC it came with a genuine IBM PS/2 computer.
> > In 26 years, the number of keys has increased considerably, from 102
> > to 107, plus six audiovisual buttons. Two of the extra keys are
> > shifting ones (win and fn).
>
> 10% more keys isn't considerably more. Can you show me a keyboard
> with 122 keys that has all keys usable and unique rather than sending
> key combinations instead?
That would be difficult: I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or
even seen one. You have one. In terms of xev output, are there
duplicate keys? Which ones, and how does xev identify them?
The keyboards I have access to all send usable keycodes, even where
the engravings are the same, eg, Return/36 and KP_Enter/104 are both
engraved with "Enter", KP_Subtract/82 and minus/20 are both engraved
with "-".
The only key on this K520 that doesn't send a keycode on its own is
the gold FN key, which behaves more like a laptop's Fn key, sending
"control functions" like Sleep; plus a battery charge indicator.
> > > We're still trying to figure out keyboards manually. Instead of
> > > improvements, we now have come so far that we even can't do that at
> > > all now.
> >
> > I'm guessing that criticism is specific to wayland.
>
> No, it's about keyboards and computers.
Well excuse me. You did say earlier that you were talking about
wayland all the time. Now, without indication, you're talking about
all keyboards and computers. How are we meant to keep up?
As for figuring out keyboards, I would say that Xorg does a pretty
flexible job. There are plenty of preselected options available in
/usr/share/X11/xkb/rules/base.lst, and I guess you can override
all you like with /etc/X11/xkb/ to get whatever you like. Not that
I've needed to do so, as the options provided work here AFAICT.
> Can you show me a keyboard
> that you can plug in and have working with the correct keyboard layout
> so that every key does what it is supposed to do without any
> configuration required?
No, not without /any/ configuration. I'm guessing that you mean an
EDID-like PROM that completely describes the layout of every key.
I don't know that keyboard manufacturers have ever looked at
something like that, at least for detached keyboards.
But even then, it's likely that some configuration would be necessary
as people exercise their own preferences over at least such things as
CapsLock's behaviour and placement. If such advances led to an
inability to tweak the layout, I'd see that as a backward step.
> I haven't seen one yet. You still need to pick a keyboard in a Debian
> or Fedora installer because it can't figure out for what language the
> keyboard is, how many keys it has and whatever else may be necessary.
> When you log into a GUI like gnome, you still need to pick the
> keyboard layout in case you connected a different keyboard after the
> installation.
>
> I can connect a German keyboard instead of the currently connected US
> one and neither the console nor gnome would adjust to that. That one
> keyboard identifies itself as 'foo' and the other one as 'bar' doesn't
> make a difference.
>
> I could connect both at the same time. What do you think what happens
> when I press the same key on either, like the = key for example? I
> haven't tried it yet but I'm sure that pressing = on the German
> keyboard will give some other character instead of =. How can that
> be?
>
> Do you see in the gnome settings multiple keyboards displayed when you
> connect multiple keyboards at the same time so you can at least pick a
> layout for each one manually?
I don't use Gnome. I have /e/d/keyboard set up so that I can switch
layouts, but I actually set them automatically in .xsession,¹ in
the same way as I configure mice buttons and motions, trackpad
tapping/scrolling behaviour, and so on. Each device is configured
individually.
When I type Shift-3 on the IBM, it types £; on the Internet Pro it
types #, just as indicated on their keycaps. Similarly with ¬ and ~
on the key to the left of 1, when shifted. The extra key that GB
keyboards have, \|, is left of Z, and the position of one other key
is moved, allowing for a tall Return key instead of a wide one.
> > > [...]
> > > It is. Apparently nobody wants to maintain it anymore, and Fedora
> > > seems to have plans to omit it entirely for next release (which is
> > > like 4 months away). And it makes perfect sense to omit it.
> >
> > I haven't seen a reference for this. I have seen references
> > that say something quite different.
>
> About Xorg being no longer maintained or about Fedora dropping it?
> What are those references?
>
> I've only found that apparently one person wanted to see some features
> in Xorg and decided to work on it after it was declared abandoned and
> that it is still on the way out. It seems it's only a matter of time.
You were asking me to refute something that Fedora is alleged to have
said, without actually showing anywhere that they said it. And you
backup your claim with a suggestion that there's only one person who
doesn't want it abandoned? Please show a reference to where they say
they're planning to abandon it.
> > > I'm sure others will follow. It's only that an up to it's date Debian
> > > is already outdated so badly that you can't even get an AMD graphics
> > > card to work which was released a year ago. Maybe that's why Debian
> > > users haven't noticed yet.
> > >
> > > Already 20 years ago Debian was so outdated that I had to run testing
> > > even on servers, and that's one of the reasons why I'm very reluctant
> > > to use it for servers now. Unfortunately, that leaves no good
> > > alternative for servers.
> >
> > I can't make heads or tails of this. I don't know whether you have
> > some unique problems with running Debian: you certainly seem to have
> > an awful lot of them.
>
> I've described my experience and I can't help it when you can't
> understand what I'm saying and draw conclusions out of what you don't
> understand.
Those paragraphs didn't describe your experience: the first just
insulted Debian users; the second had no facts, just opinions.
And your reply is just one of those insults that you occasionally
toss out here. Those really belong on social media, if anywhere,
and certainly not on a technical mailing list.
¹ It's actually a script using the xinput command, and called by
.xsession, which has the advantage that devices can be changed
and the script reexecuted on the X server while it's running.
Cheers,
David.
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