Re: Installation
"Weaver" <weaver@riseup.net> writes:
> On Mon, September 10, 2012 5:10 am, lee wrote:
>> "Weaver" <weaver@riseup.net> writes:
>>
>>> On Sun, September 9, 2012 5:18 am, lee wrote:
>>>> "Weaver" <weaver@riseup.net> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> But we are talking about Debian.
>>>>> Specifically partitioning/file system decision making during install.
>>>>
>>>> When else would you make such a decision if not before starting the
>>>> installation? You can't install software without a place to put it.
>>>
>>> You are quoting out of context.
>>
>> No, I'm not, you didn't get my point.
>
> I get the point. It's just not an accurate or germaine one...because you
> quoted out of context.
You still didn't get the point.
>>> What I am saying there needs advisory material placed into the
>>> installation process so that newbies can make INFORMED decisions and
>>
>> People aren't going to spend the time it would take them to learn
>> everything they need to make informed decisions about the options the
>> installer gives them, no matter how much documentation you put into it.
>
> And here you do it again.
>
> This is one small page, with information pertaining to partitioning and
> file-systems. There is no need to put documentation into the installer
> pertaining to every subject it addresses.
> There simply isn't a need that I can see.
>
> Why do you distort the direction of the discussion to that degree?
I'm not distorting anything, lol. You come along and pick up a tiny
little detail (partitioning) involved in the process of installing
Debian on a computer, and you vote for putting some information into the
installer to educate the totally clueless user about partitioning. My
point --- which you don't get --- besides others is that it takes a lot
more education than that to turn the totally clueless user into someone
who understands and knows what they are doing. You might agree to that
since you seem to have the assumption that once the clueless user has
installed Debian, they would venture to explore it in more detail and to
educate themselves and that they would eventually become someone who
understands and knows what they are doing. Some people might actually do
that and most people probably won't.
Have you thought about all the things you would have to explain to the
clueless user to enable them to decide what partitioning they want?
Partitioning involves RAID and lvm, it involves file systems and what
the computer is going to be used for; it involves installing a boot
loader somewhere, and it might involve other operating systems and/or
virtual machines that are or will be installed on the same computer. It
involves considering the kind of available storage devices since you
might want to use an SSD for a different purpose than your conventional
hard disk, and you might want to put some things on the faster disks you
have rather than on the slower ones and deciding where to put your swap
partitions. It involves considering reliability issues and backup
strategies --- and probably a lot more I'm too lazy to think of. And
what if something doesn't work?
If you think you can explain all that to the clueless user in 10 or 20
lines of 80cpl text you can put into the installer with a chance of the
clueless user reading them, I'd like to see what you'd put in. Just
don't dumbfound the user by putting some nonsense and unhelpful
blah-blah into it that doesn't even touch the point like the so-called
"documentation" does that you get with windoze.
Keep in mind that partitioning isn't the only part of the installation
process. Maybe you now understand why I'm suggesting that deciding about
the partitioning is something to be done /before/ the installation
rather than something to be decided by a clueless user who's stuck
without a working computer somewhere in the installation process. If
that user has to ask "What is partitioning?", they are at the wrong
place.
>> For more than a decade now you need a working computer to install an
>> operating system on another one so that you can acquire information and
>> additional software as needed. Why isn't that included in the installer?
>
> Because that is an issue that somebody with a basic mastery over their
> system and sufficient experience with Debian is capable of chasing down
> themselves.
They can do that by making sure they have a working computer at
hand. That shouldn't be needed.
> This discussion is centred round the issue a newbie would
> experience when confronted by the partitioning stage of the installer.
You are on the wrong approach if you want to limit the perspective to
only one issue. Besides, you also need to consider that not only
clueless users install Debian.
>> Just boot from the installation media and be presented with a working
>> system and an installer, allowing you to switch between them.
>>
>> For those who don't want to or are unable to learn, have a button they
>> can press to perform the installation, no matter what and no questions
>> asked. However, those are the kind of people who better stay away from
>> computers, which makes it doubtful how useful such a thing would be.
>
> That is not what is being advocated and I don't see the relevance with
> Debian either.
> The whole exercise is a requirement to advise.
> Not remove choice or the power of personal decision making over even a
> newbie's system. An advisory, of this nature, as I have already said,
> would be the first step that supplies that revelatory "Ah Hah!" moment
> that encourages exploration. Not one that inhibits access to knowledge.
Well, that is your imagination of users educating themselves about how
their computer and the software works. Why don't you want to give such
users a working system that, besides other advantages, allows them to
educate themselves as thoroughly as they see fit while or even before
they install Debian on their computers? Why don't you want to give users
who don't want to educate themselves the option to simply press a button
and as a result have Debian installed on their computers so that they
can do whatever they want?
You can advocate dumbfounding users by putting a few lines of text into
the installer. I hate dumbfounding users like that, and that some users
want to be dumbfounded doesn't mean that I have to do or to propose
it. What you propose is contradictory to what you seem to want, which is
something you probably haven't realised yet. I'm telling you that there
is another option which I think is much better, and you want to totally
ignore it and accuse me of distorting things (lmao).
So why did you bring this topic up for discussion when you don't want to
discuss it? You seem to have already decided what you want, and nobody
prevents you from doing it. Don't expect me or someone else to tell you
that you should do it. I'm telling you that you shouldn't.
--
Debian testing amd64
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