Re: Derivative effects.
On Fri, Jan 23, 2004 at 10:43:56PM -0800, Day Brown wrote:
> Linux comes from Unix, which was designed for mainframes.
> windows comes from dos, which was designed for personal desktops.
>
> One of the reasons I like to run the Corel version of debian, is that
> because they wrote software for the single user desktop for a decade or
> more, they intuitively understood what the single user wanted.
>
Try knoppix, I thing it has all you are whining about and more in terms
of setup. You can install it from the cdrom to the hardisk.
> I *never* get told I dont have 'permission' to access a floppy. which is
> what a dos/win user would expect. The Unix people run networks, and
> dont
Thats distro specific, not linux specific. Mainstream debian just
usually aims more at the technically inclined while other distros
around it tend to go more in the novice direction. I don't know the new
installer though and whether it gives you the options.
> mess with floppies, so they dont notice the problem. Unless you tell it
> otherwise, it will default to the dos file system so you can take the
> floppy to a dos/win machine. Which is prolly why you want to use it
At least the gnome format tool defaults to fat iirc.
> anyway. With corel/debian, I dont havta 'mount' a floppy. Click on the
> gui file manager, and theres a "+" to click on for the floppy or cdrom;
> rw floppy access is the *default* just as a single user of dos/win would
> expect. I dunno why so many distros just dont get this either.
>
Both kde and gnome support that if the distro set up permissions and
fstab correctly, again I think knoppix defaults to that, don't know
about the new installer.
> Yes, Linux is terrific for networks. And if you are a sysad, by all
> means rely on it. If however, you are trying to run a single user
> desktop, then the whole business of having to logon and enter your
> password are a pain in the rectal orifice. With Corel, all I havta do
> is
You can set gdm to require password even if one is set for selected
local users. It can even log in a given user automatically either on
first startup, on each startup or after a delay.
> hit [CR] to accept the blank pw and bring me to my desktop. I'd prefer
> that it went automatically to my desktop like dos does, but it aint too
> bad. If I want root, I dont bother to login as root, but use su in a
> terminal. But lotsa distros just do not get it. Perhaps, as home
> networks become more common, this will be more acceptable, but even
> then, most of us in the home have "our" computer, and they have theirs,
> and we still dont need the logon process.
>
> And please dont tell me that I am ignoring security safeguards. If
> someone accesses this 'terminal' in my own house, I have a *family*
> problem, not a computer problem. This is not a problem that Linux distro
> programmers could not fix, but they themselves work at 'terminals' on
> networks and rely on passwords and authentication, and they just dont
> get it.
>
What about logging on to the Internet. You don't think that its trivial
to log in to your computer when you are logged on. A password makes it
somewhat harder to do that.
And look into the gdm option I mentioned which allows you both the
convenience of a password login protected account and password-less
local login.
> I've had the corel deluxe cds for years, put them away because as much
> as I liked it, with only 32megs of dram, it churned the hell out of the
> hard drive and kept crashing. But now I've got 384, and the only buggy
> problem is the netscape 4.7 that came with it.
>
> Which I'd like to replace, but there seems to be problems with my
> apt-get, a beautiful idea in principle, but perhaps of obsolescence in
> the sources.list file, or whatever, has yet to get me anything
Sounds like your sources.list are not pointing in the right
direction. Look in www.debian.org for a list of mirrors and apt-get
setup.
> successfully. And here again.... DOS has been using .zip files for
> years. I downloaded BasicLinux (BL-2.zip) and unzipped it into the
> /BLINUX directory of my FAT-32 dos drive, and ran LOADLIN from the dos
> prompt. It loads BL into a ramdisk, and gives me the bash prompt from a
> DOS drive. Which is really neat if I ever need to access an ext2
> partition or drive to copy my personal data onto the dos drive before
> trying to repair a trashed Linux. But as this example shows, when I
> download a .zip archive, I know I have the tools to deal with it. With
> Linux there are so many different archive formats, and more seem to be
> invented on a regular basis, that I dont have the confidence that I am
> not, as I have so many times before, been wasting my time.
The main two are gzip and bzip2 to compress and tar to put several
files into one file. The other variants are usually only used for
specific reasons and all of them have their use. zip and rar are also
supported, and you shouldn't worry, the tools will probably be around
as long as linux is (and probably after it evolved into the next
whatever thats gonna come along).
>
> I see the Linux lists frequently citing error messages.
> Like when I type
> #apt-get update
> #ign file: ...(five lines looking at the cdrom)
> #err http://non-us.debian.org/main/contrib release
> 404 file not found.
That means that you are pointing at a non-existing page. Its a HTML
error.
> and so it goes, about 20 lines, some 'hit' some 'ign', some err.
The errs need to either be removed or fixed.
> but my point is, and this is especially helpful during the boot process
> where Linux users report 'kernel panic' or whatever, that with dos,
> there is this button on the keyboard next to the scrollock. *PRINT
> SCREEN*. And you know what? when I hit it in dos, it gives me a hard
When dos or windows go into a hard lockup you can oress the *PRINT
SCREEN* as hard as you want and it will still blubber like a moron and
do zilch.
And that print screen gives you a graphical dump which is a problem to
email.
If you have a hard lockup then nothing will help you log the dump,
otherwise, if its just an error you can use one of several screen
snapshot tools. TO do it better you can check the logs in
/var/log/(kern.log|syslog|messages), a lot of errors do bother to get
logged. There is also the sysreq option to the kernel that allows you
to do quite a few things to dump system state to the logs or screen and
try to save whatever data that can be.
Also look at
http://www.linux.org/docs/ldp/howto/Keyboard-and-Console-HOWTO-20.html
for an example on how to dump the screen as text.
> copy so I dont havta get out a pen and write down all that crap. But-
> somehow the distro programmers never looked at their own keyboards, or
> maybe they never have considered how handy hard copy would be of boot
> crashes. They are all busy trying to provide us with more eye candy for
> our multimedia presentations.
>
> There are some very fundamental *functionality* issues which were worked
> out in dos years ago, but the 'not invented here' syndrome kicks in, and
Dos people haven't figured out how to get more then one program running
at a time and windows haven't figured out how to get a program running
for more then five minutes without going into the infamous blue screen
of death.
> they get ignored. The people who bought the corel/deb desktop are coming
> out with a new edition, IRC "saratoga", and I'll be watching for it.
>
> To some extent there is a culture clash between newbie win users who
> continually post on these points, and the geeky gurus who just love to
> spend time tweaking, who also get annoyed at the stupidity of the
> newbies. But if Linux is to be the desktop for everyone which the gurus
> say they want, then they'll havta provide this transparent functionality
> instead of getting to sound so professional with directions on how to
> use the CLI.
>
I think they get annoyed at the whining of newbies like you have
prefer to complain about the problems instead of just ask how to solve
them (and usually they are not problems, but like you said just
differences in perspective at what an operating system is supposed to
be)
> And to an increasing extent, multimedia functionality is being ported to
> Linux; but not having a simple and obvious way for newbies to get to
> these newsgroups for help from a text mode screen to fix gui problems
> makes no sense. It would be better if the whole logon process ran in
> ansi color scrollbar like cfdisk or MC, and only switched to the gui
> when needing to load gui webpages. No matter what your os is, dos, win,
> or nix, everyone with an x86 starts out with the default CMOS ansi color
> scrollbar setup screens, and anyone who has ever installed an os knows
> how to work with them.
>
In that case look at the default debian installer its got a nice text
installation interface.
> My first experience with Linux was with RH 5.2; the install cd had lotsa
> errors. But the kicker was that after many days of deleting the faulty
> packages from the list to get a set that worked, when I tried to make a
> rescue floppy, it got a rw error on the floppy, and crashed, wiping out
> the whole install. This sort of thing is a prime example of sloppy
> programming. Perhaps it is due to some interesting changes going on in
> the earth's magnetic field in certain hot spots, but in my neck of Ozark
> woods, compasses dont point north, and the half life of floppies is
> about 3 weeks. Rescue floppies aint any good by the time you need them.
> Is it possible to make a 'rescue.img' file to put on another hard drive,
> so I can boot off a dos partition, and make the disk when I need it? Or-
> at least, be able to email 'rescue.img' to a friend so that they can
> make one if needed?
Sure you can install linux to another partition. You can get a knoppix
or any other distro of a cdrom. The debian installation disks can
functions as rescue disks. If you bios supports it you can boot of the
network. There are quite a few solutions. Rescue disks were invented
when that was the main relevant option, and sometimes they are still
useful.
>
> Lastly, I post all this to debian because I thot it was the most user
> oriented and composed os, whereas other distros focus more on their
> commercial network applications... which is where the money is. I dont
> blame them for ignoring the above problems because of the trivial impact
> on networks and skills of the sysads that run them. But, I think there
> is also an opportunity to organize the user base to challenge the
> attempts by the transnats and goverments to control and exploit the
> internet and contents.
>
I can't really figure out this conspiracy theory paragraph or whatever
follows and forgive me for not bothering.
> I am reminded of the CB radio fad years ago. Every CB radio was sold
> with a registration card which the owner was spozed to send in to the
> FCC. People ignored them, and the FCC ignored the violations because the
> sheer volume was way beyond anything the courts could handle, and the
> cost of the devices was so low that threats of confiscation were
> meaningless. The model applies to the recent attempts by the powers that
> be to control the nature of the content and their attempts to protect
> their copywrites and other forms of intellectual turf. If- we organize,
> it aint upta them.
>
> The technology already exists to extend ham and other wireless long
> distance technologies to the point where we can do point to point
> communication with our friends in the community without even having a
> phone or cable line, or the associated power, control, and money, which
> the buried linear networks provide. The cost of the hardware to deliver
> ascii like this to your desktop has declined so much that threats by the
> powers that be to seize your equipment are meaningless. It is, and
> always has been, about the money. But if it costs them more money to
> come to your house to seize your equipment than what they can get from
> your efforts to retain it... you win, and they wont bother.
>
> The powers that be, which began with Unix, were happy to promote
> networks with dumb terminals (webTV) because only they could afford the
> servers and could control the content. But even servers are cheap now,
> and all we havta do is realize that we can afford to own *all* of the
> network hardware (some communities now have coop ISPs) and neither the
> government nor the transnats can do schitt about it. We can also rely on
> Debian and other forms of open source freeware which- because it is
> free, they cannot control either.
>
> There is one other example from computer history that applies to our
> power to control our own system: ".zip". Years ago, the BBS networks
> were setup with archived files available with the ".PAK" extension. When
> Phil Katz crafted a new archive tool, he offered it to BBS users for
> free, to extract their .pak downloads. The corporate owners of PAK had
> the money and the lawyers, and found a judge who saw things their way,
> and sued Phil, saying that they owned 'pak' as a copywrite. So- Phil
> sent out an email to all the BBSes, announcing that his software would
> no longer be able to extract '.pak' files, and suggested that we all use
> .zip instead. PKZIP/PKUNZIP is still the defacto dos/win archive
> standard, and PAK INC... went out of business. Point being, that it was
> not up to the judge, nor the lawyers, it is up to us.
>
>
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