Re: Debian vs Gentoo versatility (NOT PERFORMANCE)
On 18 May 2003 22:25:09 +0200
Sami Dalouche <skoobi@free.fr> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> As an old debian user, (I recently switched to gentoo)
I'm a debian user, and i'm trying to finish the installation of gentoo to test it.
> But what seems to me is that everybody except gentoo users really see
> the point with gentoo : the main advantage, at least for me, is the
> presence of USE flags, and not really the fact that you can optimize
> your system.
Although optimizing certain things MATTERS. Recently a friend (another, the second)
changed to gentoo. Testing X performance with glxgears, they win a lot of fps.
I'd wish to post some numbers. I will do it when i recompile X.
Having a libc & X compiled for i386 sucks in performance terms, yeah.
> Here's how it works :
> the first time you install gentoo, you define a set (that u can change)
> of so-called USE flags (plus optimizations).
> the USE flags are a uniform set of configure options.
> For example, lots of applications have --enable-gnome, or --enable-X,
> and --enable-gtk. Well, if you want all three, for all your apps,
> but don't want qt or kde, you define
> USE="X gnome gtk gtk2 -qt -kde".
Yeah, it's cool. But in myo pinon gentoo abuses of the USE flag.
too may crap there; "ipv6", "gnome" "framebuffer" is nice, but currently
there're a lot of braindead unuseful flags there in my opinion.
> This is the main problem of apt-build (or whatever it's called). If you
> compile some package by hand, either you block the upgrade (which then
> can block some upgrades and is not convenient at all), either you just
> let the package management system to care about the update and you lose
> your compile options..
apt-build just seems to build the debian package but it doesn't take
into account "ipv6" or not. Instead; there're things like "lynx" "lynx-ssl"
packages instead of a "lynx" flag.
> So, What I am asking is whether debian tries to do something like this.
> Gentoo is cool, it's bleeding edge and stuff, but I'm sure there will be
> lots of debian-based binary distributions in the future, so I'd like
> debian to be useable too ;)
USE flag is cool. But not using it isn't a big problem.
They're just libraries and codepaths not used. It shouldn't
affect performance in the real world (and if it does, perhaps
you should fix the app, not the package system :)
Anyway i think it should be an option.
A thing that i really like of gentoo is that they don't have
"unstable" or "testing" distros, but a gentoo distro
with "unstable" or "stable" packages. By default, unstable
packages are "masked", but you can unmask them. Yeah, i know
you can mix different package versions in a debian system.
But they don't mix and maintain different distros, but just
mask/unmask packages. Don't know a lot about this, kill me ;(
Recompiling all stuff like gentoo does is clearly a very bad
design decision. But well, gentoo is a "metadistro", so they
don't have to provide binary packages.
Nice of gentoo is that you can recompile stuff. Which REALLY
speeds up _some_ things like X.
Personally i use apt-build. I recompile libc, libgtk* (there's a
real difference for the gtk2 apps) and font
rendering libraries. I'd wish to recompile X to test performance.
But apt-build can't still recompile X (due to a apt bug, i've been
said; but you know, bugs get fixed :)
Recompiling all stuff is not good. Recompiling sysklogd to log
more quickly the possible bugs that may show up when recompiling
kernels with -O3 is not something that i would like to do.
The portage tree is a HELL. They're like 90 MB you've to download.
Then you download things like:
usr/portage/app-cdr/simplecdrx/files/simplecdrx.png
usr/portage/app-emulation/vmware-workstation/files/3.2.0.2230-r1/vmware.png
usr/portage/app-emulation/vmware-workstation/files/4.0.4320/vmware.png
usr/portage/app-emulation/vmware-workstation/files/4.0.4388/vmware.png
usr/portage/app-emulation/vmware-workstation/files/4.0.4460/vmware.png
usr/portage/dev-lang/R/files/R-logo.png
usr/portage/dev-util/netbeans/files/netbeans.png
usr/portage/gnome-base/gnome-session/files/gnome-splash.png
usr/portage/media-video/nvoption/files/nvidiaok.png
or
usr/portage/app-text/remem/ChangeLog
usr/portage/app-text/rfcutil/ChangeLog
usr/portage/app-text/rman/ChangeLog
usr/portage/app-text/rpl/ChangeLog
usr/portage/app-text/sablotron/ChangeLog
usr/portage/app-text/scrollkeeper/ChangeLog
usr/portage/app-text/sgml-common/ChangeLog
or
usr/portage/app-sci/gperiodic/files/gperiodic-1.3.2-gentoo.diff
usr/portage/app-sci/octave/files/filebuf.diff
usr/portage/app-sci/octave/files/kill-dvips.diff
usr/portage/app-sci/pymol/files/pymol-gentoo.diff
and you *arent* going to install or even look to all
that crap. But it's your "portage tree". Great. You've
to download it to get the (VERY slow and excesive complexity)
portage tool.
Another thing that i like from gentoo is:
app-admin app-text fresco-base net-fs skel.ebuild
app-arch app-xemacs gnome-base net-ftp sys-apps
app-benchmarks dev-db gnome-extra net-im sys-cluster
app-cdr dev-haskell header.txt net-irc sys-devel
app-crypt dev-java kde-base net-libs sys-kernel
app-dicts dev-lang licenses net-mail sys-libs
app-doc dev-libs media-fonts net-misc x11-base
app-editors dev-lisp media-gfx net-nds x11-libs
app-emacs dev-ml media-libs net-news x11-misc
app-emulation dev-perl media-plugins net-p2p x11-plugins
app-games dev-php media-sound net-print x11-terms
app-i18n dev-python media-video net-wireless x11-themes
app-misc dev-ruby metadata net-www x11-wm
app-office dev-tcltk net-analyzer net-zope
app-pda dev-util net-dialup profiles
app-sci distfiles net-dns scripts
app-shells eclass net-firewall skel.ChangeLog
apps are very well clasiffied. Easy to find apps
just with ls /usr/portage/ and autocompletion :)
(they also have a search tool)
Just my thoughs. Feel free to shoot me if i'm wrong.
Gentoo have some good things, but in overall, i don't like
how it works, debian gives me mucho more things. Im
trying to get a gentoo system working to test it,
im living a true hell recompiling idiotic things like
gcc. I just want a working system; i'll recompile
it if i need it.
Diego Calleja
Reply to: