Re: where do NEW packages go?
On Sat, 18 May 2002, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> Philip> Not as pointless as people may think. Debian is being challenged to
> Philip> examine its culture and this is never a comfortable process.
>
> Really? I would think that this is far less a cry to examine
> one culture than a bunch os people who do not try to understand how a
> complex social system works, but come in and try to impose their own
> half naked schemes of how things ought to work, and result in mostly
> disruption and chaos.
>
A change of culture does cause disruption and chaos at times. This
includes people becoming upset.
> Sonething the size of Debian requires more than the ability to
> yell loudly, it requires the ability to work with a large group of
> people, and to understand how consensus is derined, and how work gets
> done.
Of course it needs more than people shouting, but often the loud
complaints start things moving.
>
> Philip> All organisations, including Debian, have a culture with
> Philip> certain values and assumptions which its members are hardly
> Philip> aware of. These assumptions are built into manuals and
> Philip> procedures, written and unwritten.
>
> Philip> The way I see it is that Debian's culture developed though
> Philip> being a distribution of GNU/Linux.
>
> And therein lies your flaw. Debian has evolved as a bunch of
> people who are trying, through various and diverse reasons of their
> own, to get the Best working set of UNIX like toolsets and
> envoronments going. This is a fairly technically competent set of
> individuals, and a fair number of them are keeping at the bleeding
> edge of technology.
Omit your first sentence and I would agree with the addition of "Now
they are being invited to expand their vision of that technology."
>
> Philip> It is now being challenged to see itself as a distributor of
> Philip> free OS's, GNU/Linux, GNU/Hurd and the BSDs as equals. This
> Philip> requires a culture shift.
>
> This does not need a culture shift, any more than
> incorporating python and ruby ntead of perl needs a culture
> shift. What is needed is a planned change, and the ability to
> recognize different parts that must be incorporated, and made to work
> together -- blithering idiocies like "the FHS and linux are
> braindead" have no part in this.
Think again forgetting the previous rash comments. Incorporating the Hurd
into Debian requires a far greater mind-shift than moving to python and
ruby.
> Philip> IMHO, the target for the flames should be directed against
> Philip> the current Debian GNU/Linux centred culture and not
> Philip> "cabals". After all the Debian's administrators reflect the
> Philip> current culture or they would not be allowed to administer.
>
> Cabals? You know, the sheer clulessness of thise rambling
> rants are enough to make most people ignore them. And like most
> conspiracy theories, that only makes the lunatic fringe pop up and
> yell out about validation of the conspiracy theory.
Misdirected anger, yes. But there is an issue.
>
> Philip> Don't look for a cabal when you are obstructed, the
> Philip> organisation's culture is probably the problem.
>
> Or the sheer inability of a novice to comprehend the
> methodology that has made the organization successful in the first
> place.
Debian is successful, but it also needs to change.
Phil.
--
Philip Charles; 39a Paterson Street, Abbotsford, Dunedin, New Zealand
+64 3 488 2818 Fax +64 3 488 2875 Mobile 025 267 9420
philipc@copyleft.co.nz - preferred. philipc@debian.org
I sell GNU/Linux & GNU/Hurd CDs. See http://www.copyleft.co.nz
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