On Sat, May 18, 2002 at 09:17:06PM -0500, Adam Heath wrote: > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Jeroen Dekkers wrote: > > > Sometimes they give some useless "Think about me/us" mail when somebody > > has some critic. But technically they always manage to reamin totally > > obscure. It's just that we need to think about them but are not > > allowed to help them. It would work better if it was the other way > > around. :) > > Those who know how to do it know how to do several things. They are part of > several groups(ftp-master, owner@bugs, buildd, security, nm). Only those that > are in the know, and have proven they are trustworthy, have been able to fill > these roles. Joined the cabal, you mean? You probably see it different because you are part of some groups, but this is how I see it. You still didn't manage to show it's different. It would be nice if reality was different... > The software these groups use is all available for everyone to see, so others > can figure out how it works, if they are willing. However, what generally > happens is that some outside group sees something not occuring to their > liking, and then the following happens: > > s = statement, a = answer > > s: foo is broken, let's fix it. > a: no it's not, it works fine. > s: yes it is > a: <no answer, silence> > time passes > s: I can help, how do I help? > a: <silence> -- this happens because those doing the work are too busy to > spoon feed everyone, and some have been burned in the past doing just > this. > a: Look <here>, <there>, and <the other place>, and learn how it works. > s: <suddnely no more offers of help> Read the mail from Marcus to Manoj how it really goes. I know about 3 cases that it happened like Marcus described: arch handling, bts arch tags and apt-i18n. I guess there are more where I don't know about. > > But what has the whole release process to do with an unreleased architecture? > > Debian is a whole group. Please stop trying to fragment it. Is this your only argument? So we have to stop developping because some other part is in a freeze for a few months? This is ridiculous. > > > Debian is Debian is Debian. If Debian is ported to Linux, then Linux must be > > > modified to fit the Debian OS. Same for the Debian port to hurd. > > > > GNU is GNU. Debian is just a distribution. If you want to have the > > GNU/Hurd OS in Debian, you need to change Debian to make that > > possible. The GNU OS isn't the same as GNU/Linux. If it was, it > > wouldn't be called different. > > No, you don't change the whole to make the part fit it. You change the part > to fit in with the whole. > > Someone here has backwards thinking. Someone thinks adding an OS in Debian is the same as adding the 25th editor. > > > And you couldn't have done it at a worse time. CIM, real freeze, release. > > > All have been going on. If you do not know that, then you really are living > > > in your own world, isolated from the rest of society by your own accord. > > > > It's not that Marcus didn't told me about what happened the years > > before the real freeze. It wasn't a very long story BTW, because not > > much actually happened. > > What does this have to do with what I said? You claim it's at a worse time. I say that this is already going on for 3 years. > > Oh, some I don't get respect because I haven't changed Debian? But I > > can't change Debian because I'm not allowed to because I haven't > > earned respect yet. And because I haven't earned respect I'm not > > allowed to critize. Is that what you mean? Then I choose for the > > status quo of not wanting to join an orginazation which works that > > way. > > You'll find this is always the case everywhere. You have to earn the respect > of your peers, both in software, the business world, and even with your > friends, before you are allowed to intrude on their world. No. At least when I came to the Hurd, they treated me as their equal. As someone who could improve their software. From the first day, they treated me with respect. Even when I have a totally different opinion or say something really stupid, they still get respect. A few months ago somebody mailed to debian-hurd with a problem with windows. He was treated with respect and somebody pointed him to the microsoft website and somebody else said something humorous. We, Hurd developers, who think non-free software is immoral, even treated somebody who wrote to the wrong mailinglist about a problem using non-free software with respect. When I came to Debian, I wanted to fix the problems of the Hurd port. I subscribed to debian-devel, lurked for a while and then gave my opinion about some subjects. I immediately got flamed about that. And then everytime I wanted to start a discussion about something, I got treated like a fool, because I'm having a different opinion. And I still am treated like that. Do you see the difference between the Hurd community and the Debian community? > This is all common sense, which it appears that you are severly lacking. If you continue with personal attacks, I'll start with it too. Jeroen Dekkers -- Jabber ID: jdekkers@jabber.org IRC ID: jeroen@openprojects GNU supporter - http://www.gnu.org
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